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Robert Clark
Posts: 54
Reply: 161
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Posted: October 5, 2008 7:23 PM |
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NASA SP-441: VIKING ORBITER VIEWS OF MARS
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- THE ATMOSPHERE -
"Early Morning Clouds in the Tharsis Montes and Valles Marineris
Region. Ascraeus Mons and Pavonis Mons are prominently displayed in
this mosaic, and dense cloud blankets cling to their northern slopes.
High cirrus clouds lie to the west of Tharsis, and waves are visible
in the clouds surrounding the peaks. Bands of clouds appearing to
have a cellular structure extend north from the canyon, and the areas
within and immediately surrounding the chasm exhibit water-ice fogs.
[211-5049; 5°S, 105°W]"
"Early Morning Surface Fog. The presence of morning fogs in some
crater and channel bottoms is a Viking discovery with possible
implications for the future biological exploration of Mars. These
early morning views of the Memnonia region were taken one-half hour
apart using a violet filter to enhance the contrast of the
condensates. The areas marked by arrows are noticeably brighter in
the later picture. The fogs indicate specific spots where water is
exchanged, probably on a daily cycle, between the surface and the
atmosphere. The surface and lower air layers in this region become
unusually cold at night because of the thermal properties of the
surface. When the surface warms in the morning, it seems that a small
amount of water vapor-estimated to be about one-millionth of a meter
thick if liquefied is driven off; this vapor recondenses in the
atmosphere, which warms more slowly, to form a ground fog of ice
particles. [P17487; 13°S,147° W]"
"Early Morning Clouds in Noctis Labyrinthus. Condensate clouds are
seen here in early morning in the canyons of Labyrinthus Noctis,
which lies at the western end of the equatorial Valles Marineris
system. This picture, which covers about 90 000 km2, was made by
combining three frames of the same field taken through violet, green,
and red filters. Although these clouds lie mainly down inside the
canyons, they evidently extend above the walls and spill over some of
the surrounding plateau. Like most condensate clouds in the Martian
troposphere, they are believed to be composed of water-ice crystals.
[P18114, 9°S, 95°W]"
http://history.nasa.gov/SP-441/ch12.htm
Such sites would be an ideal place for a future lander, including MSL, particularly during the seasonal period where such low lying clouds/fogs are known to be present.
Here's one report that suggested Memnonia as a landing site for MSL because of geologically recent landforms suggesting liquid water flow:
NORTHERN MEMNONIA AREA: A POTENTIAL SITE FOR “MODERN” GROUND WATER.
Ronald Greeley and Ruslan Kuzmin
http://web99.arc.nasa.gov/~vgulick/MSLS99_Wkshp/Greeley_Kuzmin_Memnonia_abs.pdf
This report also gives Memnonia as one of the prospects for a future landing site:
Possible Martian Landing Sites to be Considered for Future European Exploration Missions.
P. Martin and M. Castillo, ESA - European Space and Astronomy Centre, PO Box 78, E-28691 Villanueva de la Cañada (Madrid),Spain; ****@sciops.esa.int.
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2008/pdf/1794.pdf
Memnonia is also an area of high water content as indicated by GRS, which is also consistent with the frequent low lying clouds/fogs over the area:
WATER CONTENT IN THE ARABIA SOIL.
I. G. Mitrofanov , W. Boynton , M. Litvak , A. Kozyrev , A. Sanin 1 and R. S. Saunders
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2006/pdf/1643.pdf
Bob Clark |
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Fred
Posts: xxx
Reply: 162
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Posted: October 6, 2008 12:16 PM |
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Robert,
Please supply link to the Viking images. I believe the post above is an ESA image. I may be having a problem with the ESA imaging system and scale.
Sol 130 shows more wind and clouds. Stratafractus has transitioned to stratacumulus. The frost in the trenches has taken on a more white and powdery nature. Subsurface condensation from vapor release from sub-surface ice layer is a possibility with longer nights. That would be the only change I could think of.
Fred
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Robert Clark
Posts: 54
Reply: 163
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Posted: October 6, 2008 12:44 PM |
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The first image in reply #150 is a Mars Express image. The second in that post is a Viking orbiter image.
Bob Clark |
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Fred
Posts: xxx
Reply: 164
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Posted: October 6, 2008 5:16 PM |
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Robert,
OK I see the Viking image and did give it a good look. Image 1
Area I- This area does indeed show low level cumuliform clouds, cellular and in an oragraphic pattern. This may produce micro-precipitants in the form of very light snow shower. I doubt any accumulation would be produced but the process is the same Would be very Earth like.
Area II- This area looks like dense fog to the point of surface obscuration. Precipitation even on a micro-scale would be problematic with the ability of the atmosphere to get past super saturation in a strataform layer.
Image 1
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3177/2919991280_78c9d2423a_o.gif
The next image is from the polar region and was part of the September 8 release from MRO centered 79.2N. This is around 10 degrees from Phoenix and shows what looks like a more active weather pattern. The relative scale to the Viking image is smaller and the detail greater. Makes me wonder why we have no early morning imaging of the Noctis area from MRO. Maybe they keep them in the good stuff stack.
Area I- This shows the same low level cumuliform cloud with vertical development.
Area II- This shows a stratacumulus deck in oragraphic pattern. Snow is likely in association with these features because, well, there is snow on the ground that is visible.
In summary I will concede that Snow can form in widespread areas of Mars the only area with a lot is the polar latitudes. In Mid and equatorial latitudes it would be more isolated to geographic favored areas. I have seen no snow on the ground in the equatorial regions.
Image 2
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Fred
Posts: xxx
Reply: 165
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Posted: October 7, 2008 5:34 AM |
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The reality is there are so many Mars images that going through them all will take years and understanding them will take decades. The deferent imaging systems percent another challenge. Give me a Hubble image any day.
This image does show an active storm during winter in the Northern Polar region. The area I- Just East of the storm and associated front shows an area of convection and snow squalls. Not bad for a near vacuum.
Southwest of the main storm shows a secondary mid level storm on the edge of polar hood. Mid level southwest flow has injected dust into the storm. Cold and stormy for sure.
Fred
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Fred
Posts: xxx
Reply: 166
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Posted: October 7, 2008 1:43 PM |
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White fluffy cotton-ball clouds or cumulushumulus. Now would be a good time to know the real color. Thank God there is no stock market to spoil this lone white cloud.
Then we must ask is it white with a tan hue because of the condensation nuclei. Is the sky blue to black or does the tan dust give it a green hue like in the Viking images. Tan clouds in a blue-green sky transitioning to black. Wow.
Fred
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Fred
Posts: xxx
Reply: 167
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Posted: October 13, 2008 7:23 PM |
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This is the instrument depiction of snow aloft at the Phoenix site from JPL. The wispy tails of snow are clearly visible. Base 2.5 miles with tops of nearly 4.5. That is over 10,000 ft of snow. Impressive, image 1
Image 2 is Earth comparison of snow aloft that does not reach the ground. The official term is Virga. A winters day in the summertime on Mars. Clouds with fuzzy streaks from the base, must have been a sight to see.
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hortonheardawho
Posts: 388
Reply: 168
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hortonheardawho
Posts: 388
Reply: 169
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Posted: October 14, 2008 3:54 PM |
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It is now sol 138 17:30 LST and no Phoenix images have been posted for this sol.
I have made up a sign to hold up on the street corner: Repent! The end is near! ( for Phoenix ) |
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Fred
Posts: xxx
Reply: 170
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Posted: October 14, 2008 7:47 PM |
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Sol 138 data coming down. Looks like we survived the storm. Clear skies.
Fred |
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Fred
Posts: xxx
Reply: 171
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Posted: October 15, 2008 12:32 PM |
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Finally got a look at the MARCI image associated with storm that passed by Phoenix.
It has a lot of interesting features. I marked each one and will post interpretation. The Marked image came out smaller and hides some detail. Will post link to larger unmarked image.
Area I- Theses white arrows depict a wind flow straight off the ice pack.
Area II- they are two of these area and this is important. The yellow arrows show the moisture feed off the ice pack. The elements start off small and are likely stratacumulus or fractus similar to what we see pass by Phoenix. At the end of this band of low clouds is a mid-level nimbo-stratus type cloud that would be associated with snowfall, most likely aloft but elevation and trajectory would rule. Impressive convective pattern with large bands.
A second area of these type clouds can be seen just west of areas III and IV. This area has no apparent moisture source and at a much lower latitude. These clouds cover a wide area and most likely oragraphic but that is speculation. No visible vortex can be seen but that again is speculation with system scale and cut off of data to the south. These are not high thin wispy clouds we have been exposed to. This suggest a secondary moisture source once again.
Area III- This is very exciting as it clearly shows a deep thermal gradient gust front screaming off the ice pack. WOW!. Love to put a wind sock on that. This is what the storm that passed by Phoenix looked like when it started. Did I say, WOW?. Look at that puppy kick up the dust. Could we get lightning?
Now this is clear visible evidence of dust being kicked up onto the icepack. This would cover the ice and cut off sublimation. This is proof that the ice pack is a place of winter ice deposition and summer dust deposition.
Area IV-This looks like some mid or high level dust. I presents smooth and hazy like good dust should.
Area V- This is the storm that passed by Phoenix. Two dieing gust fronts with thin bands of dust depicted with light blue dashed lines and arrows depict wind direction.
We can conclude that Mars is a lot more dynamic and Earth like. The sky would indeed have tan clouds and white clouds. Again the second image is larger and has more detail but no markings.
Fred
Marked image
Unmarked
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Fred
Posts: xxx
Reply: 172
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Posted: October 15, 2008 12:49 PM |
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I just took another look at the second area II just west of areas III and IV. Using the virtual magnifying glass on my computer snow covered terrain is visible under the clouds. This would suggest that at least this time the snow made it to the ground.
WOW,WOW, WOW. That would be three of them, lol
Fred
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Fred
Posts: xxx
Reply: 173
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Posted: October 15, 2008 10:52 PM |
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Looks like the wow’s may have been a little premature. What appeared to me as snow covered hills under the mid level clouds is most likely an image artifact in the assembly process, Oh well.
Fred
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Fred
Posts: xxx
Reply: 174
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Posted: October 16, 2008 10:14 PM |
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Sol 140- Looks like clouds and high winds
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Fred
Posts: xxx
Reply: 175
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Posted: October 17, 2008 11:48 AM |
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Wind from sol 136. This would be around the time of storm passage. Lots of clouds and wind. How strong is the wind on Mars? I can not say if it can move a grain of sand, but it can rock a Lander.
Near Vacuum, yea, right
Fred
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3073/2948895505_c3190c2c3e_o.gif |
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Mizar
Posts: 119
Reply: 176
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Posted: October 17, 2008 5:05 PM |
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Thank you Fred for your good work.
I hope not the wind itself can harm the lander for now. But we will have to accept that the weather at last WILL HARM the lander in near future. (sigh...)
--Mizar, where ? oh yes... In the Big Dipper... |
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Fred
Posts: xxx
Reply: 177
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Posted: October 25, 2008 4:17 PM |
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Sol 148 continues to show high winds battering the wind tail in the near vacuum atmosphere. The 0 percent relative humidity during the day continues to develop cumulus clouds above the ice fields. Duh.
Fred.
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Fred
Posts: xxx
Reply: 178
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Posted: October 28, 2008 6:43 AM |
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Sol 151- Looks like a heavy frost at 05:00. Winds seem to have got lighter with convective cumulus around 15:00.
Fred
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hortonheardawho
Posts: 388
Reply: 179
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Posted: October 28, 2008 11:35 AM |
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sol 150 leate evening - sol 151 early morning:

I don't see a single frost "glint" anywhere in either image. |
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Fred
Posts: xxx
Reply: 180
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Posted: October 28, 2008 1:43 PM |
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This was the official Frost image from Phoenix site. In the grayscale I thought I saw a similar pattern in reply 178.
Fred
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