Phoenix on Mars

Horton>>>
That's the second time you asked about 'rings'. Can you please circle some or point them out that are in the pics. Thanks.

rpage>>
It would be interesting to find a Martian bacteria that utilizes chemistry and static charge to regulate subsurface pockets of ice/water/moisture.

Well, perhaps those 'rings' have something to do with it especially circular activity from bacteria, if they actually move or generate themselves in this way? [way over my head here!]

yt
dx

Hi Hort,
Is reply 397 the second attempt at getting a sample from 'Stone Soup' to the MECA? They were hoping that the space between two polygons would have concentrated minerals/salts and were digging deep.

The colour seems a bit 'off'. I base that throwaway line on the deep green colour of the scoop sides as compared to (for example) your image 353. But if we accept that this is effectively a false colour image then there is a clear difference in the makeup of the soil. Mayhap they have been successful in their endeavour.

rpage

AS usual your #400 is a seminal contribution.

I've been thinking along similar lines. But I am not looking for earth like stromatolites although some earlier Oppy images, ignored for MI treatment, suggested such, but just for structures that suggest possible life to me, the circles, the spheres, the filaments, the discolourations, etc. These are all there in numerous images from Meridiani to Phoenix and when one adds the "weird" cohesivity of the soil that was noticed and ignored from at least early "Spirit" observations and now the apparent impermeability of the surface skin at Phoenix that does not appear to allow water to pass through its structure in either direction but yet in OM images appear to be friable, soft, fluffy, etc., there is the possibility that we are looking at a Martian phenomenon without any Earth analogue where some kind of martian life abounds in a type of relationship at the surface that allows for the maintenance of ice in the soil and diurnal humidity changes in the atmosphere and may even have a source of Oxygen for its aerobic types.

The ME Rovers and Phoenix have only scratched the surface physically and figuratively so far so who knows what other reactions and relationships a future well equipped rover or lander might find deeper in the soil that would deafen Hortonheardawho?

There is real hope for a reawakening of real Science and exploration of the unknown from the little that has been leaked so far of the Phoenix results.

I have practically given up hope of seeing typical earth microbial forms on the OMs but I think they are possibly there staring and whispering at us. However, we have seen no further AFM images. I wonder if there will be more! and if they are, will they choose some innocuous standard recognizable pebble or clay like particle to work their magic on or could we hope they would choose some of the particles (magnetic or not) that hint at some degree of strangeness, for the AFM?

I think it is quite possible that Hort has pointed out several signs of mars bugs along the way, the latest of which just might be in reply #397.

Winston

sol 102 34 minutes changes - reduced to less than 2 seconds - of soil freshly piled on a WCL hopper.

You don't want to know what I think I am seeing.

Er, watch closely the soil on the bottom left side of the pile.

Here is a sol 102 3D that I think shows some decidedly darker ( grey?) soil in the latest trench. Looks like a Hearty Soup to me. Soup for you! Soup for everybody!

dx, why don't you look at this "best focus" montage very slowly, scanning left to right, top to bottom. Do it several times. Then do it again. Take a break. Come back and do it again. And again. Walk the dog. Play your violin.

If you haven't found the "rings" ( mmmm, doughnuts! ) after an hour I will consider spending an hour that I would rather devote to creating more images highlighting what I find inderesting.

Brian: "Hi Kye,
On the Blue Forum Marsbug came up with an interesting concept to explain the clumping effect and reduced stickiness of the soil once exposed to the atmosphere. Well worth a read.

Marsbug,
I'm not sure that the liquid film at the ice/vapour interface at depressed temperatures holds true. For sublimation at these temperatures H dangling bonds would seem to be the formation mechanism."

Thanks Brian!I'm not sure it holds true either, I was hoping that someone on the blue forum would either shoot me down for sure or support the idea but I haven't had any replies one way or the other. Ah for my own mars simulation chamber and six months to do some blue sky research!

@Hort # 404 "soil freshly piled on a WCL hopper"

That is weird. What could cause that?!

Horton>>>zoost>>>

Thanks-downloaded from your site, of which I go through every few days and will review the image in my image editors for 'rings' and things.

As for your 404...if there is something alive and moving its got to defecate and secrete some kind of fluids!!! Just a thought.

Martian soup is right!

yt
dx

A pile of scraped up and disrupted regolith is dumped onto a hopper. The arm then goes about the normal routine of scraping and digging, with consequent vibration of the lander. If there was no movement of the soil it would be weirder than what we see.

If we have both static and ferromagnetic influences in a (very) dry powdery sol then couldn't we expect some strange looking structures to eventuate?

I guess we all suffer from confirmation bias in our perceptions of what we see.

Excellent stuff as usual Horton!
Regarding Reply 404:

The WLC Hopper animation phenomena of soil falling in one place and accumulating in another is not so odd because it is just falling down...or it it? It does look very odd and suspicious, almost although the lower elevation material was being deposited (or was moving) before any higher elevation material began falling. Also, the falling material appears to accumulate in columns/stalagmite-like structures. Is it just a trick of light or a static/magnetic thing? Nice find.

The chunk of soil in the hopper appears to be layered and there appear to be small voids or pockets in the lower right quadrant of the image. Are these apparent small voids and is the layering real or are they image or processing artifacts that are not real? Can you tell Horton?

Hearty soup indeed! Boy I would love to sit down and pluck a few treasures out of that stuff. All kinds of stuff in there to look closer at.

The image that you call "this" best focus montage has been one of my favorites of your compilations. I see small rings here and there but it's hard to tell if they are material or the substrate the material is sitting on. Some rings are composed of grains that may have arranged themselves by static/magnetic forces. The particle crystal mineral grains are what talk to me in that image. There is particle that is screaming at me in your image..I can't make it go away. It is a small radial feature in the middle of the right half of that image.
It looks like lots of organic organisms that I've looked at under microscopes over the years. Many rocks and soils have root-like or branching structures within them. Some are plants, some are fungi, some might even be animals. A spider or shed spider skin can appear like this particle in the image. A plant root might look like this in the early stage of development.

I think it appears more like a fungal root fragment.

There are also many inorganic forms of mineral deposition and also arrangement of particles by a magnet that can generate structures like that one.

Sorry I left you guys wondering about Mars water. I believe the Mars surface structure is a lot different than Earth’s surface material, duh

Those boys at NASA should just drawn them a picture of the surface water exchange and the answer would be obvious. The short answer is any liquid film on the surface would be very transitory and of very very short duration under different conditions than they have had, such as the instant of frost or water snow phase change.

Image 1- This is a diagram of the surface make-up The blue line#1 is the permafrost layer. On Mars it is several centimeters below the surface and may be broken and a lot lower in other locations. The brown line#2 is the surface. In between we have a large area of porous dry surface material. The thin blue line#4 moisture exchange from the ice layer, “Temperature dependent.”

The Surface of Earth does not have this layer of dust like Mars. Trying to obtain the same results with different parameters is the definition of insanity. The sun does beat on the surface and would dry it out in a hurry. When they push the instrument in the ground we get a gas release and the natural state has already been changed. Hort showed us this in Image 2.

Fred

Image 1

Image 2

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3118/2663896876_7a5d9268e0_o.gif

There is an update regarding the "clumps" on the lander leg:

http://uanews.org/node/21442

Also here:

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=29789&cID=278

I think we aready knew that. I even posted a picture.

Fred

Where? I looked through the threads, but didn't see anything yet. The UA article and gallery image are both new, as of today. The point is that the Phoenix team itself is also interested.

Interesting that the 'clumps' are on one leg only. One theory is that dust and ice were blown onto the leg during landing. If the regolith does indeed have the rather impressive thermal inertia properties implied by the presence of well bonded permafrost only 2 cm down, then any regolith dust deposited on the leg could insulate ice that deposited on top from any heat transfer from the leg. We would therefore have a perfect shaded and cold location for frost to deposit and resist sublimation - so the clump would grow.

Er, Paul, I first pointed these "clumps" out on a June 27 post and speculated about their origin in reply 36 of the Possible Ice II thread.

I have done quite a few photos under the lander.

Sometimes I think I am wasting my time posting here.

Hort,

You're not wasting your time.

Clearly organized motion in the sequence.

Problem with the clumping discussion is that it moves down and then to the right, not just down.

Lighting changes, quite visible in the sequence, seem unrelated, visible on he "white bar" shadowing below.

Yep, I know what you're thinking.

Any related frames around this sequence other than what you set up as a gif.

In particular, can you point me to the original last two frames?

Hort,

Never think you are wasting your time here. Your vision in imagery is leaps above the rest. If I knew anything about such matters I would comment. You can bet thousands read your post.

You are the Man, never forget that.

Hort Fan

Full L1..LC animation:

HA!

Two dust devils in the same direction within 4 minutes! Who would have thunk it.

OK weather guys, it's time to brush off your high school geometry and calculate:

distances and headings and movements speeds to the devils. Some hints in this montage.

Bonus points if you calculate the size of the dust devils.

I will need a little help. Formula- Speed = Distance divided by time.

Fred