Phoenix on Mars

Winston,

The original 'thingy' didn't sublimate, it was dug over. The following extracts are from Mark Lemmon's diary for sequential days:

More digging, dislodge interesting fragment

Continue dodo trenching, wantonly destroy fragment

Hi Brian

Thanks! I had read that. But I had also done an animation of images from sol 19 to sol 24 which suggested that it was possible that the interesting fragment (thingie) might not have been totally destroyed but further fragmented to form the pices that NASA used to proclaim sublimation of ice when they disappeared two days later.

see gif animation below

http://LWS.smugmug.com/photos/332912990_mCuWg-O-1.gif

It is most likely true that the thingie was wantonly destroyed but there is a slim possibility that it was further broken into the pieces seen in the left trench shadow of sol 20. There were no shadows in that area on sol 19.

If I remeber correctly Horton was the first to peer into the shadows and suggest that the thingie had been broken into further pieces that could be seen in the shadows. Not to suggest that he is right but there may be other interpretations of the images.

In any case, My main point is that there is another possible "thingie" and I think that they should study it to the extent possible, at least to see if it sublimates and how long it takes to sublimate.

Winston

Oops

That third paragraph should read

It is most likely true that the thingie was wantonly destroyed but there is a slim possibility that it was further broken into the pieces seen in the left trench shadow of sol 20. There were no pieces in that area on sol 19.

The gif should also show better here:

Winston

My two cent. The first thingy was broken up and then disappeared leaving residual behind. In other words there was no evidence of changes that would indicate further intrusion after it was broken up.

Winston,

Your thingy seems to be smaller, , and more in line with chained features I have seen.

Fred

OK the truth. I am a closet UMSF poster. I understand you guys and Doug got into a little discussion a few days back.

It is always about presentation. Personally I like to lurk here. I have seen some great minds come and go. Where does science end and fantasy begin is the question? Even in a insane post I suppose there is a thread of truth at least from one prospective.

Now I am here. Mann, I have read a lot of your post and you are very intelligent but, “Mars Lilly?”

Winston, You always look at every image and speculate as do most here. There is a worm hole between the mainstream hardcore scientist and this forum called Hort.

Brian, a true geologist and all the new comers and goers. The truth is always in between it would seem. There is a big hole called Henry. Where forth arth thou?

Respectfully,
Fred

Henry, Henry, Henry.

Where are you?

Fred

Fred

I suspected as much from your earlier posts.

I also suspect that you are not afraid to call a spade a spade. I also suspect you were truly hurt when you were "banned" by doug for exploring a quite logical position but one which several people, here and there, are brainwashed not to see. Hence the reaction that was a bit too extreme for my liking. But it takes all sorts.

I agree with you about Mann. He is probably the most perceptive, hard headed and sensible poster here. I don't think he was saying that the deposit or whatever on the rock was a "mars lily"

Re. Henry, I've been asking with no response. Also Marsman has disappeared. I hope they are allright. It is strange that they have stopped posting for so long.

Winston

Winston,

I have lurked and posted on UMSF. I have lurked here. I hoped you followed my link to UMSF to see a sampling of my rationale.

Even though I have not corresponded with you, I feel like family. This is the place to question without fear.

Henry, Henry, Henry

Fred.

Winston,

I saw you call out to Henry. That is a lurker thing. Let us hope he is OK.

If he has succumb to mortality we shall play a song.

Hell of a man , hell of a song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlVNod_krsM

Fred

sol 50 animation of "icy soil" drying out in the scoop:

What I think it shows is the soil drying up as the sun light sweeps across the soil.

Er, the reports of my departure from the jungle of Nool have been greatly exaggerated.

My scheduled departure has been delayed indefinitely by my mother's health. She was to depart with me, but complained that she didn't feel quit up to the trip yet. She is 86, frail, not in good health and wheelchair bound.

I have targeted Sunday for our trip -- but she may well again back out at the last moment. Last year she kept putting the tip off and I had to threaten to tie her to the top of the car to get her to finally go.

On another personal note:

I just got my computer going after a short in its power supply -- which set off the fire alarms at 4 AM. I was lucky in that the power supply didn't take the motherboard with it to that great electronic heaven in the sky.

I spent the first 2 hours after repairing the machine backing up the hard drives. Man, I though I was more current. The last full backup was 18 months ago.

I am still in a "vacation" mode, so I don't plan on processing any SSI images while I wait for mom to finally decide that the gods have decreed she may go.

I notice that no one else is bothering to do anything with the RAC images, so I will fill that gap until I actually leave. I will not post my departure until I have actually arrived at my destination.

( That reminds me of the "Young Lady named Bright" -- not to be confused with the girl from Nantucket" )

Another Henry song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbFEnoITiWE

Hell of a man.

Fred

The last Henry song,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcDCvQbOdig

Hort, you are suppose to be hiking on the Appalachian trail.

PS: If you see a guy with a banjo run. Song to follow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esl2NNOtHQE

Fred

We should play a Hort song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzrKlEtxTx4

We love ya brother

Fred

Hi All

Here is one of my colourations of a sol 50 Phoenix image series.

Of interest here, to me, is that much of the soil debris from the trench took on a greenish colour and that when I reduced the shadows in the rock near to the debris some objects which might or might not be possibly segmented "thingies" could be seen.

Winston

3D "super-res" infrared soil detail:

I put the "superres" in quotes because it's not really a superres -- but once can be created from the original data. As I surmised, the "twichy eye" filter shots are a routine sequence that the Phoenix guys are using to get 10 pounds out of their 5 pound bag.

The best we can do is average out some JPG artifacts -- but to my eye the result is worth the effort.

Er, say, what are those small white circles with a dark "grain" dead center with a ring of grains surounding the circle?

Anyone? Anyone?

And here are the sol 49 and 50 RAC RGB views of the soil in the scoop:

I find the dark splotchy spots in the sol 40 image, er, curious.

The rasping operation seems to have shaken all of the dark soil out of the scoop and a lot of the redder stuff too -- but not all.

Remember, you can't compare images made with the JPGs -- only features within a single image.

Color by Horticolor: How grue my bleen is today!

Interesting place, Mars.

I believe we are looking at the same items as we saw in the early MER Eagle crater photos, in soil surface views of small dark spheroid shapes, sometimes angular, sometimes out of round, with the platy peripheral bright ring, which in many had a series of rather well developed extensions, either lobed or pinnate. The very small OM photo item from the Phoenix landing site, which appeared similar, carries many of the same shape qualities. For a zone of extreme cold, that appears to have an active phase at some timing, either short in timing, or ongoing, and should be of interest to NASA for that reasoning. I am sure they believe they have the basic ideas in a 'box' somewhere. If we could pry open that container to peer inside for a day...

I did a very simple experiment yesterday, with no camera record as yet, using some dry ice(CO2 frozen to ice), and a half dozen varieties of Iron compounds, including Iron(III) Oxide Red, a very brightly colored red powder which is the 'reddest' of the reddish ruddy and darker iron compounds I tried. In a first try to view the basics of CO2 ice with the various items, in an Oxygen dominated, and very humid Earth type atmosphere, I sprinkled the powders in the dry ice, as might happen in a dust storm on Mars. The dry ice, immediately upon closing the transparent plastic container, began to extract the water vapor from the air, both inside and outside of the container, causing a surface of thick bright frost all over the powders and the plastic walls of the container which was in direct physical contact with the dry ice. I found that the bright red Iron(II) Oxide Red, had the greatest alteration of color and tonality. Why this is was may relate to the finer powder particle size of the powdered material, so caution in hearing this description is appropriate, but the red powder became nearly white and indistinguishable from the dry ice background after a few hours. As I had to leave the ice unattended for a half day, and returned to study the remains after sublimation of the ice, I found some of the bright red powder had 'reappeared' as a powder residue on the bottom of the container, alongside the other various colors and tonal variations of the other compounds which were tested. This may be a premature challenge, to suggest a particular compound to be more reactive or attractive to the water vapor and more altered in color and tone when 'iced' with water frost, but it is surely a subject of some scrutiny in the standard science labs studying Mars climatology and mineralogy. I intent to repeat the test later, with a camera setup, and a presence throughout the sequence for viewing the process. The results may or may not be appearing repeatable later.
The details in no way match the conditions of Mars, nor do the compounds involved exist in the detailed results of the MER, CRISM, nor other instrument results of Mars surface, but I couldn't resist a very simple check of the basics of altered appearances when frost and ices are present in Earth's 'wet' and very dense atmosphere.
One interesting idea from the basic observations is that the powders seem to have a nonreactive interaction with the dry ice, which I would expect, as the dry ice is a solid to gas active compound even on Earth, as compared to a water ice interaction which we might expect would be more active, and even allow for a physical attractive relationship to develop between the powders and the water ice. In the weather on Mars the various development of water frost and CO2 frost/ice should cause a large amount of differing terrain patterning, with thin or thick lamination of the materials, and other physical terrain building.
To think of the seasonal CO2 geysers, for example, as a source of darker materials, might require the action of water frost or molecular vapors being interactive with the soil chemistry rather than thinking only of the CO2 ice to vapor process. I suspect that while a driving column of gas could suspend particles in it, the CO2 is not the carrier of the darker material. It would be a active water frost/vapor process with the sequence which was active in the far polar region, north of the Phoenix landing site.
I hope this exposition on surmising basics of soil particle interaction with CO2 and water ice hasn't irritated many here, as I can imagine it is central to the processes in the Phoenix photos showing color and brightness variability from day to day, in the Phoenix region climate.
I'll present more of this in a separate topic in Mars 'Geology' on the marsroverblog, if the results are repeatable. The bright ice viewed in the Phoenix images looks very isolated and nearly pure ice I believe. It must be forming from a molecule by molecule ice block building process, which may have tendency to exclude impurities. Perhaps the process of expansion and ice building is a far better source of melt-able and usable water than any 'wet' liquid solutions of particle and ice could be forming if liquids were involved. If an exclusion of the particles were involved and active with the dry ice, CO2, and perhaps with the water frost substituting for the vacuosities of the sublimating CO2 ice, the water vapors may form replacement chambers or veinlets during seasonal changes. In the Phoenix area as a little warmer than the south polar area, the building process may be daily.
Certainly the items Horton was referring to have been active at some timing. Was it unique in timing, or ongoing during climate changes?
Will we find well separated ice throughout the Phoenix digs?
It is curious that Ferrous Sulphate(FeSO4*7H2O), with water bound, is pale green in coloration, on Earth in our climate and atmosphere. What about the Mars variation of the same compound?
Will the frost and vapor affect the soil, or sequester to building ice deposits?

The Iron Oxide Red above was (III) in both references- my typing caused the world to fail once again. Thanks, danajohnson

This the colored image that has the small ground bloom that horton shows in his super-res cross above.

its behind the rock, and, to the right of the most obvious bloom, is a small white object protruding from a small hole.(pre bloom?)

hope this not to large, i'm still trying to figure out my sites new tools.

Please if you can, check out this chunk of basalt, and whats on it, and protruding out many of the holes, strange things... for sure. Cannot wait for the real RAWS.

http://mann.smugmug.com/gallery/100790_dc97B#333672952_GEFKp-X2-LB

Wierd stuff in all the photos, eh Winston.

super_res, my work in progress

Thanks Dana

Hi Mann

nice image at 318.

Here's another composite of a landscape pic from sol 51 showing a green colouration of some rocks and the nearby soil. Bet they will all appear reddish brown in the official version.

Winston

on the sunny side of my rock image, there are long chains of a material, not part of the rock. In the shadows, with arrow, encrustations, with one having a, er, ah, ependage, the other?. in the soil, ground bloom, with one coming out of ahole, the other on of the odd globular clumps, right next to the rock.

The phoenix images have many more features that show the dynamic conditions prevalent in this environment.