Phoenix on Mars

Hort

Nice animation!!

Mann

You commented on the stickiness of the soil as soon as the earliest images were out.

Here's an L12 composite of an area of the pnx soil surface with a rock that has a quite interesting patina texture. Hope the arm can get close to this one and they can scrape the rock surface.

Winston

you have a very interesting website, r_lewis (http://geocities.com/rlewis6/)

Just finished listening to today's straming audio Phoenix News Conference...

YAY!

The 7th "shake" filled the TEGA oven!

Lots of speculation about why the Mars soil was so "sticky" -- but in a day or so we will have some genuine scientific results from Phoenix!

re 118 yes I was refering to H2o in geenral as being water, water in any of its phases. I did not mean liquid watyer in the atmosphere, that would be silly. What I meant was the term dry or wet, as it applies to an atmosphere, should referm to the relative saturation of water vapor in the atmosphere. For example, desert air on earth is very low saturation of water vapor, it is dry. The air on mars is nealry 100% saturated with water vapor. While the total volume of water in the atmosphereic column is very small, the behavior of the atmosphere at enar saturation with water vapor would be in some ways nmore like a humid environment on earth. The important distinction is water molecules entering and leaving the atmosphere from ground sources. Because the atmosphere is saturated with water vapour, water molecules enter and leave the atmosphere in equilibrium. So, in fact, water molecules might be deposited from the atmosphere on any surface. Of course this would be a dry process, what is the term for the reverse of sublimation? I'd say precipitation but I would not want to imply this is rain or snow, I mean water molecules being deposited directly on a surface as water ice, the same way frost forms in your freezer. In fact, thats a good way to think about it. The relative humidity inside a non frost free freezer is at 100%, which is why frost forms on everythiung. Of course there is alot more water in there to begin with to move around, but the action is the same. A frost free freezer has to remove water molecules actively, which it does by means of the defrost cycle (some magic combination of heating and cooling) but basically mars atmosphere is going to behave like the non frost free version of a freezer, just witha very small volume of actualy water molecules to work with.

folks>>>

I can't believe in this water-thing in the soil. It has to be another contribution to adhere the Martian soil together that we are not familiar with and missing as to its reaction in Mars nature. Not Earth nature...Professor! 1 MM sieve grid=stupid. You had your chance.

This is a simple test. Don't you get? Since no one on Earth can describe what is happening using Earth dimensions of chemistry and, dare I say physics, to understand the reasons we see what is going on. It is obvious that a very complex situation is facing us and people like Ben and other geologists in the blog are silent to discuss it, until that first examination is released to the public. We can not solve the problem. As I said earlier in this thread Spirit and Oppy did not leave any dust storm behind them when they traversed the surface.

All the Martian soil is from the volcanic explosions of millions of years ago.[that's Olympus Mons and his 3 friends]. And if there was water accompanying the soil settlings over the entire planet at an early date then what we see today is the actual settlement of that dust-mixture and any residue buried as 'acidic-ice'. Never heard of it ...ehh?

Acidic brine slush is my bet, with mixtures of several other soil types from the bowls of Mars is more than likely the make-up. Slush, like concrete mix we see on Earth construction sites.

YOU?

yt
dx

Max, the MER rovers showed that there is atmospheric deposition of frost at those near equatorial sites. This frost burns off as the temperature rises in early morning.
Because there is more water vapor near the poles, there should be greater frost deposition there as well.
Judging from the max air temperature of -30C at the Phoenix site, the max ground temperature might be -10C or above. This is well within the range to allow liquid water brines. So some portion of the frost might turn liquid temporarily before it evaporates.
Another very important point to keep in mind is that the pressure requirements for liquid water are reduced by salts just as are the temperature requirements.

Bob Clark

Hi Robert, I agree with you. However, where are you getting the value "-10 C" from? Is this simply your personal estimation? Did you find this from a specific source? - if so, please provide a link.

Thanks

i will tell you right now that there is no way the soil at the phoenix landing site or anywhere close to it has or will ever have liquid water.

[link]

the MAXIMUM temperature in the soil is -17C, it is still way too low , too bad :[

but yes, i will guess that there is liquid water near the equator of of the planet (at certain times of the day).

1/2 size 4x2 RABC panorama:

I know it's useless to make these now -- but until the official version is available... enjoy.

All the images required registration before creation of the color images. No white banalce and only minor brightness and contrast changes were made.

This is an autostitched image.

Sigh.

Now that TEGA is oprtational it's like waiting for Christmas morning...

Wait! Was that sheigh bells!?

Max, even -17C is well within the range of liquid water brines. Salts can depress the freezing point of water significantly.
The -10C estimate comes from the fact that the max air temperature is around -30C and the ground temperature can be as high 20C higher than the air temperature.
There was also a report that modeled the ground temperature that gave an estimate as high as -2C at the Phoenix landing site.

Bob Clark

So, Max...... Not only do you know the present state of water in the soil at the Phoenix site, but you also know the future possibilities of water in this soil, eh?........you are ahead of the game, my friend.

I wonder if the dust that fell into oven,
has get in because if had dried up.

So, how now can any water show up?

eS

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14577882

Supercooled water brines within permafrost-an unknown ecological niche for microorganisms: a model for astrobiology.

es>>>

Got to agree with you on that one. It seems like an impossibility for 'moisture' to be on those little specks of sand! However, something else may have stuck to these particles if they all don't get burned away.

We may find out. In the mean time>>>

[link]

check our the NO. 1 Question.

yt
dx

reply 131: all your opinions are based on personal estimation without any sources. If you want me to take you seriously you would have to find the salt density on the surface of the planet (dont just make it up), and from that find a extrapolate to a new triple point (again, use a formula and dont make it up).

ok looking here (assuming its reliable) http://van.physics.uiuc.edu/qa/listing.php?id=1580

10% salt solution freezes at -6 C
20% salt solution freezes at -16 C

so that would give the relationship -200x^2-40x=y

where x is the percent salt content (10% = 0.1)

y is the freezing point of salt water.

So find a source having average and maximum salt density on mars and we can ESTIMATE the triple point.

Two sol 17 (Phoenix) images

Deck getting a bit dusty from the first sample shakings etc.

Cheshire cat "rock" on degraded soil.

Wish they would acquire and post some more real raw images of the soil surface. The Ones dx posted that might be showing frost are specifically for stereo and unsuitable for colour compositing and the ones of the same area that are suitable for colour are viciously down(de)graded.

There are several hints of numerous tiny bluish spherules in the soil.

Winston

"3D" RAC RBG of soil dropped on the deck?:

with links to the parent image -- with links to two other 3D pairs.

I think I got RAC images in reply 80upside down.

My perception figures no "3D" info in the image of reply 139. Is there any?