Burns cliff

Well the primitive forum software did not put my "handle" in and the links did not form. Why is the "commnents" entry box such an absurdly tiny little box? Why not let the box grow to the width of a the page? There is not even a link for help in posting. Anyway, here are the links again:

Metastability of surface water on Mars
http://mars.caltech.edu/marswater/marswater_files/frame.htm
www.iki.rssi.ru/hend2003/ppt/hecht.pdf

A mechanism for recent production of liquid water on Mars
www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2003/pdf/2073.pdf

Evaporation rates for liquid water and ice
www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2004/pdf/2112.pdf

The gullies of post 174 are of a completely different scale. The gullies are absolutely stunning and impossibly impossible also. And yet, there they are, however they happen, they happen.

Somehow water flows for maybe a kilometer on the surface of Mars in what seems like the most unlikely of places, (on the colder south facing slopes in the 300 something latitudes of the planet). Well some say that it can not be water, but could be dust, a gas, or liquid CO2 or maybe that stalwart - the thin fierce wind.

Slowly the impossible, becomes possible – in our minds...

Some links:

Latest Mars Odyssey observations prove free water at equator.
Posted by Robert Clark on 6/27/2003 8:03:48 AM.
[link]

A report presented to October, 2004 Vernasky/Brown Conference
provides further evidence of these seasonal changes:

EVIDENCE OF THE SEASONAL REDISTRIBUTION OF WATER IN THE SURFICIAL
MARTIAN REGOLITH BASED ON ANALYSIS OF THE HEND MAPPING DATA. R.O.
Kuzmin, E.V. Zabalueva, I.G. Mitrofanov, M.L.Litvak, A.V. Parshukov,
V.Yu.Grin'kov, W. Boynton, R.S. Saunders.
http://www.geokhi.ru/~planetology/theses/47_kuzmin_et_al.pdf

The issue is not whether there is evidence for at least local and episodic liquid water active on the surface of Mars in the recent past. That was suspected long before the missions of the last 8 years, and there is abudant evidence that it has occurred. I accept that everybody here accepts that, most people working on Mars accept that. So let's stick to the point.

This is whether particular features in Endurance crater are evidence of recent liquid water. No matter how many images people show of gullies elsewhere on Mars this does not change the fact that so far nobody has produced a half decent image of anything that looks like a gully or seep at Endurance.

So let's focus on Endurance. I have a suggestion, rather than posting pictures and saying "this looks like a seep/spring, liquid flow, etc." how about listing the features that make it look like a seep/spring, liquid flow? What is obvious one person is not to another. I have listed a partial list of the features I would expect to see, but don't. I don't think it is too much for people who do see such things to list what they see. Otherwise we end up with a discussion that is simply "I see it, I don't".

Cheers

Jon

Reply 181:

I mentioned many times the tiny comment box issue, and the "Preview" button/option, which actually exist, but only shown when the form return back for correction.

May it is intentional. Mark may prefer brief comments which takes less space in his server and may casual readers prefer short comments and may better focus to "Mars Meteorites For Sale" or to buying lands on the Moon.

Hi Jon, thanks for contributing to the discussions.

Here is a nice photo from Sol 128 that shows surface flow on the outside of Endurance. Not only does it show a sink or drain but we can see at least two tiny rills and a sorting of “berry” lag. See the one that goes along the bottom of the photo, through the little clearing, then up at about 30 degrees off the vertical? It's odd. I suppose the one through the middle is obvious.

Source:

The context for the photo is a bit hazy as I do not have step by step sequence for sol 128, yet. Here is the best context I can find right now with the time I have.

I'm not sure why the photo posted so big! Here is the reference page.

[link]

There are 3Ds and color of some these photos that help in interpretation, but they are poor and need adjustment to use.

This filter shows some interesting differences in surface conditions.

Hopefully the photo will post to a decent size.

Nice images fossils. if you don't mind, I will refrain from comment until Monday, when I have had a chance to download them on a bigger faster connection onto a bigger faster computer at work.

Cheers

Jon

Ba! Couldn't wait. Besides it is a hot day here and nothing else to do

Those gutters (for want of a better work) are certainly very odd looking features. One thing I am confidient of is that they are not water carved.

The thing ro remember is flowing water not only forms gutters, it winnows away fine sediment. therefore we would expect to see the gutters filled by concretions and lacking fine material. What we see is the reverse, concretions absent from the gutters which instead have fine sediment in them.

I still think some kind of ground shrinkage is the best explanation. The loose surface lag of conretions get tipped into the hole, leaving the fine-grained surface material beind. the crack then closes up. But this is just provisional.

On another topic altogether, if the surface is hard walking on such a lag of spheroidal grains could be an interesting experience!

Cheers

Jon

Wow it has been a while here. The gullies posted by microkid in 174 are awesome, is that a recent Mars Express image? This is getting a little off topic though, we are talking more about water and surface flow than burns cliff per say.

Hello All! You all have contributed beautifully to this Blog !

Jon, how are you doing? I do have to agree with you on your "Reply 189". We should not forget the aeolian dynamics that are still taking place on the surface which could be (still) contributing to the sorting of the spherules (whether they are absent from topographical lows or not).

I may be a little bold in saying that this particular surface locale may be in "equilibrium" due to the aeolian sorting of the spherules.

Also, at first glance, I noticed that the spherules are a little larger near the "gutter" then those that are farther away. Do you see it as well?

From http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2005/pdf/2363.pdf:

Laminations within Burns Cliff “lower unit” are similar in appearance and scale to laminations within the “upper unit,” which, upon close examination by Opportunity, is revealed to be finely-laminated sulfate-rich sediment, not eolian sand as previously thought. The contact between the dark layered material at Burns Cliff with the brighter overlying sulfate is a surface textural change, not a stratigraphic contact between different lithologies. When examined up close, this contact was shown to cut across stratigraphy. The fine laminations that characterize the upper sulfate units, first seen in Eagle Crater, are present in the darker, rougher-textured material below this contact. The dark Burns Cliff “upper unit” appears dark because its surface texture has been modified.

the only sharp and salient light/dark division I see is horizontal, near the top, across most of the image. Ok; suppose that's just a change of texture, as the cited authors suggest. In what way does it cut across stratigraphy? And which are the fine laminations that characterize the upper sulfate units, first seen in Eagle Crater??

This isn't burns cliff but it is a close up of the division between the light and dark material. Take a look at the microimages from around this time too.
[link]

L257 1x12 of upper units of Burns Cliff( 80% JPG):

Warning: 3.4 MB link:

Color by Horticolor: Created with a lot of Blood, Sweat and Tears -- and showing you colors that are real -- not!

Thanks for that heads up, Alan, this will be my next colorizing crop area.

Beautifull as usual, Horton. I can fully appreciate your Work, believe me.

Fransisco, here is another look at the contrasting areas.

Any questions about Endurance? Any answers?

Sorry guys but just couldn't avoid to see imagine Burns Cliff when it wasn't a...Cliff...

Food for thought, ustrax!

Thank you, mann, for the example; --and Horton: tour de force!

But, does Squyres make sense to you guys? Op. cit. reply 192:

...brighter overlying sulfate
...dark Burns Cliff “upper unit”

Horton,
That is a magnificient stitch!!
Thanks!

Utrax I think
shows what Burns cliff was before it was a cliff.

u lot betta lissen up you donuts these vertical lines in the cliffs are called joints they are created by physical weathering and i am doing about them in school. im getting a dolls house yeeahyyyyyyyyy