Burns cliff

Jon, Guys,

Two more shots of weeping rock slabs

The large group of weeping rocks just above is up crater from the "Ponding" site at Wopmay. Suppose some fluid lasted long enough to overflow the "Mud Banks" on the down crater side of the rock slabs and made it to the "Ponding" site?

But now could that be as these photos are not real and are really just wishful visions in the heads of those who see signs of water flow on Mars.

Gosh it sure is interesting the weep site seem to be about the same distance down from the crater rim. Maybe there is a underground water source here? Just waiting to be told it is all the tricky wind on Mars. Amazing we are told Earth chemistry MUST hold for Mars but those amazing Mars winds sure seem to be used to dismiss anything which looks even a bit like the impossible Martian water flow.

How about letting the photos define what is happenning on Mars and not personal theories.

Anyone care to EXPLAIN how the features seen in the above photos could have been created without a fluid flow?

Any gas is a fluid.. Mars has a thin atmosphere of gas.

Ok so are you saying these event sites with their holes, down crater flow channels & soil buildups were caused by Martian wind or by the atmosphere getting so cold it condenses and turns to a flowing liquid?

If it is the "The Wind Did It" trick then EXPLAIN how EACH of the photographed event sites was created by that oh so tricky Martian wind.

I'm not sure what sort of explanation you want exactly. Given everything that I've ever read about the environment on Mars, I would say that if any of those features are indeed a 'flow' of some kind that they are caused either by the wind or by some liquid that is now long-past.

It is also possible that some of them were formed by liquid coming from below the ground, but without any evidence of that ever happening it's all a complete guess, don't you think?

More xeyed horizion adjusted flow sites on the outside of Endurance crater about where Burns Cliff is:

Sure looks like the ground around Burns Cliff leaks inside and outside the crater!

Re Halitosis 164,

Why do you think the flow is long past? Why are the holes still there when other slab to slab cracks nearby are filled in with sand?

I suggest the flow from under the slabs is removing soil at a faster rate than the Martian wind blown dust / sand can fill them in.

Surely this indicates an active and current process.

Instead of reading about what some current theory on Mars "explains", how about looking at the photos and coming up with theories which fit what is being photographed.

As far as there being NO evidence of ground water flows what do you think caused the massive flow events seen inside various crater rims?

I agree. Water is constantly flowing everywhere, which is why we never see it. It's INVISIBLE water.

Sorry, but I don't think there is enough ACTUAL EVIDENCE to back up your claims. Perhaps someday there will be.

ACTUAL EVIDENCE?

Assuming physics and chemistry still apply to Mars, please explain the ACTUAL EVIDENCE as captured by Oppy's cameras could have occured by anything else but a recent and recurring fluid flow from under the rock slabs which caused the soil buildup on the down crater sides of the rock slabs.

Have a good look at this shot and you will not only see the darker down crater soil embankment buildup but the down crater surface of the rock slab is lower than the surrounding soil. The down crater end of the rock slab is sinking into the crater as soil is removed from its underside.

If Oppy's photos are not ACTUAL EVIDENCE of events which occur or have occured in the past why did Nasa send Oppy there? To take a few "Happy Snaps"?

I have at least 30 flow event site photos all showing the same thing. Holes on the down crater side of rock slabs (both inside and outside the crater) with soil embankment buildups adjacent to and down crater from the rock slab holes.

To push this ACTUAL EVIDENCE away as not of significance is beyond reason and recalls images of those who once stuck to "The Earth is Flat as otherwise we would ALL Fall Off." Everyone knows that as being true. Right?

Guys,

Here is another good flow channel. Have a look at the top right side. Notice the flow channel which curves CCW from about 6 oclock to about 3 oclock. Pretty as a picture and it even has a delta / ponding area.

Down crater is to the top.

I'm not saying those might not be evidence of water, but it could also be evidence of wind over many many many years.

There's just not enough evidence. Is it really that important anyway?

What we have evidence here is for recent volume change causing shrinkage and collapse (post 161 images 5, 6, 7 from top), slab movement (post 161 image 2 from top), and possible expansion causing local extrusion (post 14 .

I have no desire to repeat what I have said before except that there is no sign in any of these images for the sort of features you would expect from flowing liquid, whether erosional or depositional, not even post 168.

I think there is good evidence for comparatively recent flows of liquid water on Mars. I just don't see any here.

You could argue that gas (also a fluid as halitosis correctly observes)could have escaped from the holes. But it is not neccessary to invoke gas to get those holes. Gas vents also often have alteration haloes, sublimates associated with them, and there is no sign of that here.

While I don't really want to resort to arguments from authority, perhaps I should point out that my current job includes the recognition of groundwater discharge points in the landscape in connection with salinity hazard management. It was one of the things I was looking at last week. So I should have a good idea what a seep looks like

Cheers

Jon

Hi Jon,
What I have trouble wrapping my mind about (as probably do other people on this forum) are situations like the ones indicated in the photo below.

The arrows point to the margin of what looks like a cohesive sheet. On the left it partially drapes a spherule. On the right, the sheet maintains it's continuity even when it partially hangs inside the hole. Viewing it in stereo shows that it clings to a portion of the near vertical wall of the hole on the right.
Would you be able to give more details how shrinkage would produce that draping effect? What actually causes the shrinkage (ie. what is being removed)? Would you expect the margins to have a "lobate" form?
Thanks,
Aldo.

There are several differences of work of liquid flow on a sandy surface and wind work. Some of them are:

- Liquids left mostly uniform hard contours on the bed but wind left soft traces.

- Ripples or waves are sign of long period of flow. ner can expect long time for wind left a liquid flow like shape therefore ripples are expected. Most of examples there appears brief flow of liquid, therefore no ripples are expected.

- Liquid always flow downhill and left characteristic of constant volume flow and gravity. That is it carves less on flat area and deepens and narrows in steeper inclinations. Wind action is basically independent from inclination of the surface.

- Liquid can change direction easily and obey the topology of the surface. Wind behaves differently.

- Liquids carve surface and make holes where they sink. Wind can not carve similar patterns.

If someone fails to distinguish these differences, his/her opinion should have no relevance.

Re reply 171

Hi aldo. I suggest the features are characteristics of layering in the soil, exposed by erosion. There is nothing in that image that suggests flowing water.

re reply 172

With respect to your points:

- Liquids left mostly uniform hard contours on the bed but wind left soft traces

JC. This is not the case, water erosion can leave soft contours and wind hard ones.

- Ripples or waves are sign of long period of flow. ner can expect long time for wind left a liquid flow like shape therefore ripples are expected. Most of examples there appears brief flow of liquid, therefore no ripples are expected.

JC ripples are sign of a particular flow regime. Ripples can form in a gutter after a shower of rain.

- Liquid always flow downhill and left characteristic of constant volume flow and gravity. That is it carves less on flat area and deepens and narrows in steeper inclinations. Wind action is basically independent from inclination of the surface.

JC Agreed

- Liquid can change direction easily and obey the topology of the surface. Wind behaves differently.

JC Agreed

- Liquids carve surface and make holes where they sink. Wind can not carve similar patterns.

JC Wind can cut potholes in the same way as water

Cheers

Jon

Guys,

Anoher photo of what sure looks like recent fluid flows:

from:

[link]

Another good link on recent water activity on Mars:

http://www.etsimo.uniovi.es/solar/eng/marspr3a.htm

I liked the bit about dust settling reducing contrast"

"The third picture, "Fresh, Dust-free Surfaces," shows a January 2000 view of small, dark channels eroded into one of the gully alcoves found in the "Aerobraking Crater" located at 65°S, 15°W. Two aspects of this picture indicate that two of the processes that contribute to martian gully formation--liquid water seepage and downslope movement of dry, as well as wet, debris--have probably occurred in the near-recent past. In this case, near-recent could mean "within a few days of when the picture was taken" to "within a few years of when the picture was taken." One aspect is the sharp contrast between dark-toned and light-toned surfaces . On Mars, fine, bright dust can settle out of the atmosphere and eventually coat surfaces so that the contrast between dark and light terrains is hidden from view. There was an experiment on the Sojourner Rover in 1997, for example, that found dust to be settling out of the atmosphere almost all of the time during Mars Pathfinder's 83-day mission. If dust were settling on the alcoves and small channels shown here, they would not appear to be so dark relative to the surrounding, bright, dust-covered terrain. The other attribute of the picture that suggests relative youth is the preponderance of boulders and their sharp, crisp relief which indicates that they have not yet broken into finer debris, nor have they been covered up and mantled by sand or dust."

That lower soil embankment build up area sure has a lot of contrast relative to the surrounding soil. Gosh could it be the result of muddy soil being moved from under the rock slab by a recent fluid flow onto the embankment and not yet covered by the constant dust falling out of the sky as observed by earlier landers?

No way as it is all done by those convient tricky Martian dust free winds. Right guys?

Re "So I should have a good idea what a seep looks like"

So please explain to all of us who know so much less than you do how this event site occured and please answer a few direct questions:

1) Why is the down crater soil embankment buildup so much darker than the surrounding soil?

2) Why is Martian dust not infilling the long trench along the down crater edge of the rock slab?

3) Why is the down crater side of the rock slab sinking into the crater wall?

4) How is the down crater soil embankment buildup occuring?

5) Why is there a line of BBs at the edge of the embankment which appear to be aligned with the contour of the down crater edge of the rock slab?

When you finish on the above event site how about doing the same for this site?

And here there is another question:

6) How are the several "High Water" marks as seen in the down crater soil embankment buildup formed?

Jon,

This was caused by SHRINKAGE or the WIND?

Do you have some alternative motive here or are you just having a go at us?

I don't know much about how liquid water behaves in a vacum. Some say that water can't flow on mars cause it would instantly boil away.

I read that when water is exposed to vacum, the boiling at the surface can carry away heat and freezes a crust of ice.

If say, you had a muddy water rich salty subzero paste on mars,that was percolating out of the crater, maybe the extreme cold of mars would retard the sublimination effect. Water and mud would freeze along the leading edges of the flow, but liquid could still move inside, kinda like a lava tube.

Maybe the cold and the dissolved salts in the water, and the insulating crust effect, could allow small flows of liquid water to exist on mars for minutes, maybe hours at a time.

I'm just curious exactly where would this water come from? That crater probably only gets about 1/1000th an inch of frost precipitation per year, if at all.

Re post 174:

That is an excellent excample of what is probably a liquid flow, most likely water. Although it is probably of a scale 10 to 100 times larger than what people are calling seeps in Endurance, it shows a number of the features one would expect.

1) There are a number of point sources relatable to particular geological features, in this case several rock strata.

2) There is a sinuous channel that is incised in its upper reaches and depositional in its lower reaches.

3) There is a depositional fan on the lower slope.

4) There is an integrated drainage system, convergent in the upper part, where channelised liquid flows emerging from the strata converge to forma trunk channel. There is also a distributary network on the fans, exactly as distributed.

Because many geological features show similar morpholoies at a range of scales, I would expect to see similar morphologies associated with putative seeps or springs at Merdiani.

Re post 176.

Point 1 - I see that as a shadow.

Point 2 - I am not sure what you mean by a "trench", is it the dark line? It m,ight be a overhand, but this could be formed by any number of processes.

Point 3 - Why shouldn't it? It is on a steep slope. It could be creep or some other form of mass movement. Equally the block could be in the process of exhumantion. Without a closer image, who can tell?

Point 4 - Not sure what you mean

Point 5 - ditto

Second photo. I can't see anything these that looks remotely like liquid action

Point 6 - can you give examples please?

Re reply 177

It is bit hard to tell the orientation of that feature. However, shrinkage, mass movement, collapse and wind. It is possible, if other evidence of liquid flow were present, for the small rill like features on the left to be viewed as formed by liquid. But I rule this out in the absence of supporting indicators and the fact it is not convincing.

Re your last point. I don't play that sort of game.

Re post 178

I think the idea is that there is a shallow aqufer warmed by the geothermal (areothermal?) gradient. this is likely the case in the image for post 174. But there is no other sign of a high heat flow or a shallow meltwater aquifer at Meridiani other than these supposed seeps.

Jon

MicroKid,

Your common sense observation that the features (on the south outside of Endurance and less distinct ones inside the crater) were made by a small amount of liquid water is shared by many.

It seems obvious that not too long ago a thin mantling of dust was “washed” down hill across the flat rocks. The hematite lag objects were nudged downhill by this flow. The flow deposited “mud” on the rocks and hematite objects. Small collection “troughs” were formed along the downward sides of the rocks. The dura-crust collapsed in places where it became saturated.

You see these features, I see these features, a 6 six year old sees these features. The first impression is – oh it got a little wet.

So why do scientists and others state this observation is mistaken? Because it is impossible without some kind of liquid, namely liquid water. And water exists as a liquid only in a somewhat narrow range of temperature and pressure modified by solutes. And Mars is very cold and vacuum like. Hence, it must be a mistaken observation.

But, there it is for all to see - evidence of “resent” surface flow on Mars at Meridiani. However it happened, it happened.

Dust bulldozers, eruptions of liquid CO2, and of course - the thin fierce wind - will all be more palatable solutions until it is shown through experiment that a small amount of liquid can form and sustain enough to flow a short distance in some kind of plausible surface conditions for Meridiani.

My guess is that a 10,000 year or so ideal “storm” brought a heavy frost/snow to Meridiani followed by a few days where the sun melted the frost on the flat south facing rocks enough for a brine to form and flow a bit (hours). The dust (what little dust there is), sand and the wind (erosion) then worked to blur the evidence to what we see today.

So, while the synaptic pathways are built we will learn about the tricky things that wind can do… Smile and enjoy the ride, but do not lose your conviction about your observation about the flow features, unless you are presented with additional evidence or a better explanation to the contrary.

Norbert Giesinger posted these links:

Metastability of surface water on Mars
http://mars.caltech.edu/marswater/marswater_files/frame.htm
www.iki.rssi.ru/hend2003/ppt/hecht.pdf

A mechanism for recent production of liquid water on Mars
www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2003/pdf/2073.pdf

Evaporation rates for liquid water and ice
www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2004/pdf/2112.pdf