Methane Mystery Deepens - Page 2

Mawrth Vallis at the northern edge of Arabia Terra is among the top candidates for MSL. Arabia Terra is one of the areas where methane concentration have been detected (during spring/summer season)so i guess it will get an even higher priority. MV is also a prime target for ExoMars.

Btw: good thing meteorites have been ruled out

Hi MPJ so the methane is a spring/summer event? That would suggest it could be trapped methane in sub-surface Ice releasing it when it thaws.

Yes, maybe but on the other hand methane concentrations are declining in autum and winter faster than any athmosperic process can explain. The loss of methane occurs near or on the surface - methane breathing bacteria or hostile chemistry?

this link from august sums it up: http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object/index.cfm?fobjectid=45382

Quote: "They conclude that there needs to be both an intense localised source of methane and a destruction mechanism that is much more efficient than the known atmospheric processes that break down methane. Further, if this efficient destruction of methane occurs only close to the surface, these findings imply a very harsh environment for organic molecules to survive on the surface of Mars (MPJ: or methane metabolizing biology?)."

> (MPJ: or methane metabolizing biology?).

Methane seeping from subsurface + perchlorate in surface soil would make an ideal combination for perchlorate-reducing bacteria.

What can't bacteria do?

Interesting article on observed limitations of bacterial metabolism and possible reasons thereof.

Yes, maybe but on the other hand methane concentrations are declining in autum and winter faster than any athmosperic process can explain. The loss of methane occurs near or on the surface - methane breathing bacteria or hostile chemistry?

Mi MPJ
No reply is needed if you care not:A couplr of small questions ,if you will.Can you conjecture a response to the occurrences ie:Methane. In particular at Troy? Can one who is versed in knowledge understand and communicate to a lesser (ie:knowledge)
in other words,me.Is there a methane activity map?Are there any similarities between what Kevin asked and Dana Reply 18? Would it be possible to turn this Methane Mystery started by Kevin,toward the Mysteries at Scamander? I would beg for your attention?Yes.

Indeed I would!!! (it's not the ones who ask here,that are important.It is the ones who provide the conjectures (answers)
There is(was?,will be?) a hell of a lot of people smarter than me.Sorry for long post,been sick,feeling better,like this board.

Joe in Texas
chilly,downcast,60F,central Texas

Joe: reply 23 has a link with maps and simulations, lot's of good stuff in that link.

Reply 23: Viking sprinkled some Organic material brought from Earth on the surface it quickly oxidised and was destroyed, that is what you get for not having an Ozone layer, Ultraviolet light breaking up the molecules and substances like hydrogen peroxide in the soil acted like an antiseptic. Perchlorites and how they are interacting beneath the surface are still yet to be fully understood and what effect it has on Organics, some say it would help others say it will prevent growth, that is down to Phoenix data still being studied to resolve.
Any Bacteria will live deep down where the Methane is rising from and could be living off rocks and acids left over from the days of wet and warm Mars. Equally it could be gases trapped in ice dating back to when Volcanic activity was in full swing and are slowly being released during thawing periods.
Perhaps we should try an impactor like LCROSS and get the current Orbiters to sniff out the resulting plume before selecting the landing sites for MSL and ExoMars, the latter will have a drill which is a good move, hopefully we will have powerful microscopes as well. Surely we could get a low budget impactor mission together, NASA/ESA/Canada/Japan/China/Russia all chipping in with money and hardware it has got to be worth doing to get the right site selected.

Here is another link which gets straight to Joe's question: [link]

As of this map the Gusev area (14°S ; 175°E)has no high concentration of water vapor and methane (allthough sligthly increased). Actualy the map shown in this link represents water vapor concentrations near the ground but the according article also states that water vapor and methane concentrations overlapping. This publication also dont adress the seasonal changes yet so maybe in southern summer the Gusev area would show a slight increase in methane concentrations as well. We need detailed athmosperic and climate observations (MAVEN?)!

An interesting quotation of a presentation of V. Formisano from the Mars Express PFS Team:

•underground life can certainly provide enough methane to explain the observations of CH4 and CH2O.
•It is not clear if the other possible sources are sufficient for the explanation of the observations.
•Methanogenic bacteria can be present 50 to 300 meters underground on Mars using H2 , CO2 to produce CH4 : in presence of some sort of acquifer more complex biota could exists.

Thanks mpj:Where is the English button on this? (link)Fascinating,anything newer on this since 2004?
Thanks Kevin for the link re: I subscribed.Many hours of good info here.

I found this (mars Daily newsletter)::

Co-author, Professor Mark Sephton, Department of Earth Science and Engineering at Imperial College London, adds:

"This work is a big step forward. As Sherlock Holmes said, eliminate all other factors and the one that remains must be the truth. The list of possible sources of methane gas is getting smaller and excitingly, extraterrestrial life
still remains an option. Ultimately the final test may have to be on Mars."

The case for life on mars is on a positive upswing.

Yes,
quote:•underground life can certainly provide enough methane to explain the observations of CH4 and CH2O.

and:

•Methanogenic bacteria can be present 50 to 300 meters underground on Mars using H2 , CO2 to produce CH4 : in presence of some sort of acquifer more complex biota could exists

Looks as if I have enough info to go for days.
Many thanks for those two links,,mpj,the English Button (location) please,I repeat myself,sigh,why were some of us born with such an endless curiosity?,need to know
mentality.I cannot answer this.

Joe,windy in Central Texas

Thanks a million for the links Guys,I've subscribed to the ESA newsletter and look forward to many hours of interesting reading.

Joe in Texas

http://www.agu.org/meetings/fm09/program/scientific_session_search.php

The Fall AGU in San Francisco concludes today.

Among the meetings:

P18: Potential Biomarkers on Mars: Detection, Characterization and Earth Analogue Systems
Sponsor: Planetary Sciences

CoSponsor: Biogeosciences

Convener: Steve Vance
JPL
USA
steven.d.vance@jpl.nasa.gov

Michael Mumma
NASA/Goddard
USA
Michael.J.Mumma@nasa.gov

Thursday 0800h

Index Terms: 6225 0448 5220 5210 5464 .

Description: Recent reports of localized release of methane on Mars, discoveries of aqueously altered terrains and revelations about the ubiquity of water invite comparison with biological and abiological geosystems on Earth. This session invites discussion of processes and locales on Earth that relate to mechanisms for the production and preservation of biomarkers, along with discussion of their manifestations on Mars.

First Talk:

P41B-00 METHANE AND WATER ON MARS: MAPS OF ACTIVE REGIONS AND THEIR SEASONAL VARIABILITY: G L Villanueva , J Mumma, E Novak 0815h P41B-002 absolute Measurements of Methane on Mars: M J Mumma , L Villanueva, E Novak

Unfortunately, it's not clear how to get the abstracts for these talks.

The abstracts seem to be available now by going to

http://www.agu.org/meetings/fm09/program/index.php

and clicking on

Fall Meeting Program and Itinerary Planner

# To begin, click Open/Create Itinerary on the left menu
# To browse the program by Day and Section/Focus Group, click Browse on the left menu

I suggest browsing by Day, then selecting the topic; that worked well for me.

I wonder if this could be happening deep beneath the Arabia Terra?

Hopefully the links works!

http://video.msn.com/?mkt=en-gb&vid=9f70ae93-ed29-4a50-946f-4cfe20bb2963&playlist=videoByUuids:uuids:d2c91ee9-c9c8-429b-a783-3a91a2968b37%2C13dd5fd1-9de9-4519-851e-4ed8129c2e39&tab=s1204718424953&from=video_module

Re: Reply 33

Since there are obviously no oceans on Mars, it would probably be something more like this.

http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/ati-lava-cave-demo-hd/8BD67EDB1D119C720BAA8BD67EDB1D119C720BAA

Trying to activate the link:
[url]http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/ati-lava-cave-demo-hd/8BD67EDB1D119C720BAA8BD67EDB1D119C720BAA[/url]

Nice link CW2 - thank you.

Thanks for the link it's really cool and this could very well be what is happening deep below the Martian surface. Mars does not have Oceans as such but has large ice fields the size of Oceans and there is a high possibility where that ice meets with some volcanic activity it would melt the ice creating something the size of a lake that could quite possibly support life.
Somehow we have to find a way of getting deep below the surface to the source of the Methane output.

Think I finally got my subscription request to European Space Agency correct.Yes those uTube computer graphics are great.

Anyone remember where the mars picture of the
crater that didn't show a bottom was?
It looked very much like a hole in the ground.Tunnel possibly?

Joe in Texas
Why don't we already have another rover en route to Mars? Answer: Politics

It was a sink hole that really cries out for a probe of some sort to go into it, a real opportunity to get deep beneath the surface. Not sure if any gases were emitting from it though.

WOW!

Thank you Kevin!!!

Joe in Texas