Bound Water on Mars. - Page 2

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Oppy Sol 257 was dead of winter. The air temps in degrees C were (Sol, High Low, Average):

225 3.5307 -78.5683 -37.5188
250 3.5307 -75.63 -36.0497
275 -0.96314 -75.4572 -38.2102

Here is an MI of a berry from Sol 257, partially crusted with what I’ve always thought was ice:

Here are the deg F temps (Sol, High, Low, Average):

225 39.441 -108.075 -34.3168
250 39.441 -102.795 -31.677
275 31.36646 -102.484 -35.559

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2007/pdf/2423.pdf

“Observation: Because of the power resources required to wake the rovers and heat the cameras, it was only possible to make the observation once on each rover. We determined that the most likely time for frost observation would be late winter, when maximum amount of water vapor from the sublimating northern cap would be in the atmosphere [4], but while temperatures
would still be at near-aphelion lows.”

Brian, you really are a consistent source of MISINFORMATION on this Forum. Mann is correct: they checked for frost only once at Meridiani, and found it the one time they looked.

Henry,

First, I believe that the atmosphere on Mars would get colder if it could. Moisture has a way of keeping you warm. As the vapor goes to a solid state it releases hear back into the atmosphere. At the saturation point of 100% humidity the process of cooling stops and warming begins or let’s just say equilibrium. Further cooling would make it snow.

I was looking at your photo and I do not see the classic Ice crystals of frost. Looks more like Mann’s cocoon material. What do you think?

Darwin

Henry,

Easy way to tell would be time of sol.

Darwin

Darwin:

I think the whispy white material covering much of the soil in this MI is ice crystals. I think the individual crystals are too small to see.

By now, the 12-bit data is available, and Horton could probably achieve much better resolution of these "feathers" by rendering one of his famous 200% renditions...

Henry,

That would be cool. I have seen this material from time to time. Looks fiborus indeed. I can understand how Mann would see what he did. If we could clear that up it would be a good thang.

Darwin

Darwin, surely you must get ORGANIZED.

I followed your reply 73, but only because I had just read the paper at

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2007/pdf/2423.pdf

to which you were referring.

Let me say I am most impressed by your “take”, from a weatherman’s perspective, on Dr. Landis’ paper. I suspect that Dr. Landis is too prone to accept a “monolithic” view of Mars, rather than a view of many microclimates sharing a single planet.

Upon looking up Dr. Landis’ credentials, I’m sure he is a very bright, capable Scientist. But I also fear that his work and training in Physics and Electronics, as impressive as it is, has not prepared him to be able to anticipate what a weatherman would see in this article.

GOOD WORK!

But please, GET ORGANIZED, so we can all follow your thinking better.

http://www.sff.net/people/Geoffrey.Landis/bio.htp

“He has undergraduate degrees in physics and electrical engineering from MIT and received his PhD in solid-state physics from Brown University.”

Reply 24:

I would not be surprised if someone did a PhD by stacking NASA’s 12-bit data on some of this whispy ground covering, now that we know what Sols to use.

The giveaway will be when the resultant magnification is great enough that the characteristic “glints” of the individual ice crystals begin to emerge.

Spirit checking out first measurements of water on Mars.

http://www.marsroverblog.com/dyn/entry/54314/discussion_page/41

See Horton’s Reply 42.

Henry,

Maybe they want to come clean now? If it is at the Spirt site it would need a source other than atmospheric I would think.

Make that a skull, a few feathers, a beak and a claw.

Darwin

Henry,

You had posted an image of ground fog at the Spirt site. Could we get a repost.

Darwin

Sorry Darwin, but I don't recall that...

Henry,

Must have been Winston.

http://mann.smugmug.com/gallery/100790#156156069

A1call gave the heads up on these images.

You need red blue glasses to see 3d.

Mann,

That be it. would you be able to get a sol on that image.

Thanks Darwin

SULFATE-RICH SOILS EXPOSED BY SPIRIT ROVER AT MULTIPLE LOCATIONS IN GUSEV CRATER ON MARS.
Alian Wang1, Jim Bell III2, Ron Li3, Jeffrey R. Johnson4, William Farrand5, Raymond E. Arvidson1, Larry Crumpler6, Steven W. Squyres2, Ken Herkenhoff4, Amy Knudson1, Wei Chen3, and Athena team.
Seventh International Conference on Mars.
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/7thmars2007/pdf/3348.pdf

This report gives evidence this time through PANCAM visible light wavelengths that sulfates are seasonally hydrated and dehydrated at the Spirit site.

Bob Clark

Thanks Bob, I had missed that article.

I find it interesting that they give three
possible causes for the sulfate soils.Precipitation of salt rich fluids, fumarolic processes, and aeolian procecesses.

My ongoing analysis of the area indicates this area is much like Yellowstone and fumarolic processes are the source.

Further I believe their evidence for time variable changes in the sulfates is weak and won't stand the test of time.

Ben,

I can honestly testify you know what a vent looks like.

“Further I believe their evidence for time variable changes in the sulfates is weak and won't stand the test of time.”

A variability is a variability. My question would be what would prevent or cause variability in your opinion?

Darwin

Bob,
Thanks for the article.

Although, I didn't really read anything about seasonal hydration and dehydration.

My take, is that the deeper they dug up the salt, the more yellow (hydrated) it was, and once exposed to surface conditions, the salt began to dehydrate and turn lighter in color, but nothing about a seasonal/cyclical rehydration possibility.
Gil

200 sols is not a trend but we can establish that the deeper you go you get more hydration. This would suggest hydrothermal origin for moisture in this area.

If the moisture was atmospheric then a seasonal cycle would affect the top layers only, not layers down below. Conclusion Ben is correct.

Darwin