Water confirmed

[link]

They took their time. But there you have it:

Water.

The principal ISRU resource. With this life support becomes a doddle and it provides the basis for methane production as well. We might even pump water up gradient as a form of stored power (so it can be released to create hydro power, as desired).

[Here's to the boys back in 628.]

Now, let them try and find it on the earth, at [one place] in particular.

Could not get the link to work so try this one.

[link]

In the press conference, someone asked a question something like this: "Where is the MECA guys, I don't see anyone here". And the question was about rumors that the MECA guys has found something interesting. The question was quickly brushed aside, seems like they was a bit stressed about this question...it seems like they was a bit uncomfortable. Did anyone notice that?

Hi Mizar

Since the first Press Conference (the one at which the alkaline pH was announced)when the Mission head commented that MECA had some "intruiging" results, I have tried to get some comments on what those intruiging results might be.

I now notice that on UMSF they have been discussing it since yesterday's press conference when a reporter, Craig Covault, hinted that the teams were keeping tabs on and double checking a very important finding by the MECA team. Our Stu brought up the matter while distancing himself from any "woo wooness" in so doing. There have been speculations that the MECA team have identified organics (Which is not likely for that team) to that the matter is just a rumour. However, from the interest it would appear as if something is definitely there.

Come on Stu, you can comment on some "woo wooness" here.

Since it's the MECA team and they are not involved in the TEGA search for organics, I would guess that, if anything at all, it might be something related to the microscopy or the wet chemistry characterization of the soil. i.e. something like significant findings of sulphur moieties in a range of oxidative states, carbonate ions, NO superoxides, humic like radicals, AFM images and so far unpublished OMs that appear to be probably of microbial origin.

Indeed, some comments by one of the speakers yesterday, suggest that they will be taking the quest for microbial signs very seriously in the now extended mission.

Winston

Hi MIzar

I just checked in at UMSF and found this

here

Very interesting reading.

Winston

Fred / Darwin

This one is for you. In the article related to Craig Covaults search for current info on the behind the scenes going ons at the Phoenix investigations, He says this "The key is in the soil and water, and how the two behave together at that site on Mars, not the expected confirmation of water ice at this stage in the mission, Mars investigators told Aviation Week.

The MECA instrument, in its first of four wet chemistry runs a month ago, found soil chemistry that is "Earth-like" and capable of supporting life, researchers said then.

..... NASA and the University of Arizona are taking steps to prevent word from leaking out on the nature of the discovery made during MECA's second soil test, in which water from Earth was automatically stirred with Martian soil."

We can read into this that they have found WATER there, not just ice, probably by the TECP

Winston

Winston, Mizar I agree with you. The silences during the press conference said more than the words.

The extended discussion about how the TEGA experiment could be adjusted for detecting organics, the absence of MECA guys, and the vague description of the WCL results were most illuminating.

I still think I will have a pleasant surprise when I return from my walk-about.

So you are saying they found maybe liquid water in the soil, in or under the dust layer?

Winston,

I do not think anyone expected this environment, but when you stop and think about it, it makes sense. To understand it we most look at another Hort image. Image 1 shows the porosity and trapped gas in the, “regolith.” It also shows cohesive properties.

Image 1

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3118/2663896876_7a5d9268e0_o.gif

Image 2 is an attempt at an illustration and explanation of what we are seeing.

Line I- Blue line depicting level of ice stability.
Line II- Surface and rocks
Area III- These black areas represent voids
Line IV- Water vapor emission from ice pack
V- This is the sun and level of thermal influence. This would vary of course.

Area III are voids created by sublimation of various ices. These areas would also be areas of high moisture at times and formation of sub-surface frost late day. I suspect this is what they hit. This would be an interesting environment with interesting potential with some radiation protection.

Image 2

Fred

Maybe they detected a release of CO2, essentially reproducing part of Levin's LR experiment from 1976:

"Every wet chemistry cell has 26 chemical sensors and a temperature sensor. The polymer Ion Selective Electrodes are able to determine the concentration of ions by measuring the change of electric potential within the sensor, which is separated from the wet chemistry cell by an ion selective membrane. The two gas sensing electrodes for oxygen and carbon dioxide work on the same principle and are separated from the wet chemistry cell by a gas permeable membrane." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_probe#Wet_chemistry_lab

So, the soil samples MAY have released CO2 after being wet by earth water, and if it did the CO2 could have been detected by the CO2 detector.

Considering we have already measured the pH of the soil, and it is NOT superoxidizing, ANY release of CO2 would be more or less proof of living microbes on Mars.

Fred

From the time that I started looking at the Pathfinder, MER rovers and now Phoenix lander images, I've done so through a prism that was heavily tinged with the results of Levin's Viking LR experiments. Thus I looked at all the MIs, at the colours of the rocks, at the indications of recent water in the microchannels on the surface that even you are now passing off as fines, at the "mud" at the regolith that looked almost exactly like a fertile humic soil in the microchannels at meridiani, etc.

I am therefore not surprised by "this environment".

There are several indications from the MER and Phoenix images and from reported data that suggested that Mar's surface soil might not be as sterile or dry as the current paradigm suggests. However, they are usually brushed off, even sometimes by you, as vapourings from the "woo woo" fringe.

I'm not certain where the MECA results might lead but I think that one thing they are likely to lead to is the replacement of the superoxide "theories" in the realms of pseudo science that are now occupied by the "Levin Life on Mars" claims. I also think they are likely to show that one cannot directly transfer ones understanding of atmospheric water interactions on Earth onto the Martian microenvironment where a number of unelucidated factors might well be at play. I think your contributions in this area are very valuable and you are likely to have the last laugh on the crowd at UMSF in this regard.

Winston

I'm not sure that the briefing should be generating some of the hype above.
http://cboh.org/~jmk/covault.mp3
A reporter makes a poor question lead in 'joke' re the scientific advisor and receives a pretty bland response.

In reply 8 Hort seems to feel that the discussion on possible adjustment of the TEGA to detect organics could be significant. The outer system is full of organics - but organics do not mean life. OK the MECA team weren't there. From the response the reason seems to be that they had nothing to add to already released results at this time.

Yes this may be a case where the MECA team is huddling in isolation packaging up a huge news release that will rock our world. Or it may just be business as usual and the media indulging in their normal attempts to generate golden news from leaden fact.

Brian>>>

Thanks for that voice-site, seems that there is a major compositional soil matrix yet to be understood. Yes, there is 'something' in the soil that binds it yet keeps it separated. The news release would more than likely be the unexpected missing soil-piece of the composition itself, afterall, they did expect water.[their words]

Fred's post 10 above, at least in my mind, makes perfect sense at this time of understanding. I can see activity of sorts interacting with water and dirt [my simple terms]and especially in 2" of soil material itself. It seems to be a 'great insulator' of sorts even though its 2" below the ice field! Perhaps even an unexpected UV blocker we can use in rocket ship design to protect the humans in space!!!Who knows at this point?

On another note; if a complete understanding becomes known of soil matrix above the ice just what is below the ice? The words were careful not to reveal too much, but the panelist did say...'soil above the ice'.

...and we can now discern as to why they got the extension to the mission...probably right to Phoenix's total demise.

yt
dx
just thinking out loud.

mistake in 14. panelist did not say 'soil above the ice', but 'what's in the soil'.

yt
dx

Winston wrote:

“There are several indications from the MER and Phoenix images and from reported data that suggested that Mar's surface soil might not be as sterile or dry as the current paradigm suggests. However, they are usually brushed off, even sometimes by you, as vapourings from the "woo woo" fringe.”

I think I will write a book one day about the life of a woo-woo. It is real easy to develop PTSD,(post traumatic stress disorder). There is a line you can cross with speculation without some science to support it or at least an understanding in your own mind to explain it.

I have argued with the best about Mars imaging over the years. The bottom line is we have the JPEG haze or dirty windows on the bus as Hort would say. We have a static mission and one perspective. At the Opportunity site it was easy to draw a correlation with what looked like, “mud.” We were at the warmest spot on Mars, we had gaping holes in the ground with wash patterns. We had buggies with tires and leaving suspect tracks. Trust me if I could find one vent hole to go along with this image I would be all over it but we do not. You can not argue a JPEG image without multiple data sets and even then they will run you out of town on a rail. Easy brother.

Fred

Image, Hort of course.

So, one comes with a nutty paradigm, and then is getting proud of discovering it is nutty. A way to go!

LWS, thanks for the links. I was not aware about that the whole planet has noticed this special moment in this press conference. Even Doug think it's exiting ...

folks >>>

go here and read a bit more.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080731/sc_nm/space_mars_dc

The excerpt below is from this article above and are the last 4 sentences I feel is leading into the next stage for the Phoenix lander.

"We hope to be able to answer the question of whether this was a habitable zone on Mars. It will be for future missions to find if anyone is home on this environment," Phoenix principal investigator Peter Smith told the news conference.

Mission scientists said in June that Martian soil was more alkaline than expected and had traces of magnesium, sodium, potassium and other elements. They described the findings as a "huge step forward."

Meyer said the scientific proof of the existence of water meant that Phoenix could "move from looking for water to seeing whether there were habitats for life.

"We are moving towards understanding whether there were or could be places on Mars that are habitable," Meyer said."

(Reporting by Jill Serjeant; Editing by Eric Walsh)

Well, if this is the case then Oppy and Spirit should be the lead team to look for the results of habitat Phoenix is after. And perhaps that is what the big story contains.

The Rovers will continue until exhausted to find and confirm Phoenix's findings.

anyone?

yt
dx

There are images from Spirit that beg reinterpreting in light of Phoenix.

The best would be to go back to the interesting spots and objects.

eS