Ice stability on Northern Mars

I tried to explain this at UMSF. I will try here.

At the Phoenix site we have ice stability a few cm’s below the surface. This is due to solar radiation penetration of the surface material.

If you look at the MRO data we have layers at the Polar cap. The reason we have layers is there is a difference of surface deposition. Dust and CO2 are the likely candidates. If we did not have a difference of layering it would not be visible.

I know that sounds so simple but some people do not get it. This is not a new thing in Mars. I will not pretend to understand geological time. Maybe Ben or Brian could give us a time span on the image below..

If we can cut off ice sublimation a few cm’s below the surface at the Phoenix site then cut off at the poles seems likely. During dry periods dust from global dust storms and CO2 ac accumulation are likely layer divisions. Layers of a few cm’s or greater would be needed to show up in MRO images.

The bottom line is, if we know where water ice equilibrium occurs at the phoenix site, then the poles must be cut off at times. There must be another source of water vapor.

Fred

The angle of inclination of the polar axis of Mars with respect to the plane of its orbit is unstable and varies over time. At periods of high inclination, the polar regions become warmer and presumably ice deposition ceases. Where does the water vapor go? Perhaps it stays in the atmosphere or is deposited in more equatorial regions.

Without ice deposition, a dust layer can accumulate in the polar region. When the inclination changes again, presumably ice deposition returns with water returning from wherever it went during the period of high inclination.

Barsoomer,

Thanks for replying. This is dilemma I am trying to reconcile. Solar incidence could stop sublimation, then we have dust deposition. This would add to the absence of sublimation.

If polar sublimation is the source of all water on Mars then a stoppage of hydro-cycle would be evident without another water vapor source.

In other words, when the vapor was cut off either from dust accumulation or temperature due to incidence then we would need a catalyst to start the next layer.

A simple application of heat is only applicable to a certain depth at the Phoenix site. Then water ice becomes stable. If this process repeated then at least it would wain with each event.

We have seen vents at the rover site. A dry eruption on Mars would be a relative thing. Subsurface water vapor would seem a likely resolution of this dilemma.

Respectfully
Fred

If the climatic excursions were all similar, perhaps it might wane with each cycle, but I think there are a mix of larger and smaller excusions. During the larger excursions, the ice gets cleared out to a considerable depth, but gets redeposited in an alternating pattern in the smaller excursions during the replacement from the larger excusion.

It is also possible that the deeper layers are ancient, dating from the time when a warm wet Mars transitioned to the current colder regime. In that case, the source of the water might be from the lakes or oceans that existed during the warmer period, or during the middle period of Mars when there were great floods that erupted from the subsurface.

Barsoomer,

Barsoomer wrote:
If the climatic excursions were all similar, perhaps it might wane with each cycle, but I think there are a mix of larger and smaller excursions

With out Heat and a water vapor supply they could do nothing but wane.

Barsoomer wrote:
During the larger excursions, the ice gets cleared out to a considerable depth,

Now Steve squires says the atmospheric dust is like smoke. That is where we are now. How far back do the real winds blow.

Barsoomer wrote:
but gets redeposit in an alternating pattern in the smaller excursions during the replacement from the larger excursion.

Yes a redeposit I agree

Barsoomer wrote:
It is also possible that the deeper layers are ancient, dating from the time when a warm wet Mars transitioned to the current colder regime.

Now the are two geo-types on this forum. We will wait for a geological time table to continue our discussion. Surly they will pony-up.

Fred

mmh! very very interesting "inference" !!!!
But what would be (to have an idea) of the overall time cycle of all this, expressed in earth-years?
Also, if I'm not wrong, I couldn't spot any regular cyclic layer deposition into the treches done by Phoenix.
Ok, a few centimeters deep trench won't mean anything significative, but...

Also the fact that mars inclination relative to sun varies, is *new* to me!
Where can be read more on this?

Finally to Martin Gradwell: Martin: do you have any opinion on all this???
ciao!
Mario

Just a very simple comment on past readings before these current missions. One posit was for a pole to pole transfer with axis inclination. Another was a claim of readings showing a regional constraint based on the current climatic limits for transfer, with limited distance transfer.

A recent HiRISE JP2 of Utopia Planitia area(37* latitude north), shows apparent ice, at odd mounds, with some showing circular peak possible vents. Also there are shadow circles which might be some type of venting or ponding of stable ice activity. Whether the possible movement in the image is from solids or liquids, or some intermediate quality, is not apparent to me in any certainty. The suggestion is of active surface ice, volcanic/hydrothermal, or other active small scale geology activity in a recent ice related context.
The image was taken in the northern springtime.
I have given a link to the topic I just started on this, as it seemed related to your basic subject matter. Hoping all detouring persons will return here to Fred's subject for discussion of his topic content about ice and climate, and the possible migration of ice in cycles, across and into/out of Mars.

Dana,

Several features on the northern plains and equatorial regions of Mars show vents and areas of sub-surface water interaction. These vents would be a plausible source of water vapor for North Polar layering.

Fred

Just remembered an image of out gassing. Do not know location. Will post image and link to source.

Fred

[link]

The image above is of an obvious gas release. The most likely is water vapor as this behavior we have an Earth Comparison. It has a low level base and is caped in a upper level inversion.

This is another image from the same suite. It shows what I believe is a water eruption in the crater and vapor cloud rising out of crater.

Any water eruption on the surface should freeze, change surface characteristics and be evident with contact with the cold atmosphere. I think this image is the smoking gun for sure. This is the Water source on a global scale and would add another layer on the North Polar region..

Fred

I got the themis link to the last image from a friend. Warning Large image.

http://themis.asu.edu/fullimages/20070503a

Sweet.

Fred

http://themis.asu.edu/fullimages/20070503a

Now back on topic.

Phoenix was slinging mud and developing ice under the Lander. The Phoenix team said ice stability a few cm’s below the surface. The Northern Polar regions are layered and white despite global dust storms.

Now you guys saw vents at the Opportunity site and I have presented evidence of water eruptions of vapor and liquid on a global scale. How long can you dismiss the images.

Let’s go meso-scale. Another vent at the Opportunity site courtesy of Hort in 3D. If major water eruptions are taking place we should see some vapor or dry vents. Yes, yes we do

Fred

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3269/2468218834_41a38271b0_o.png

In looking at the images above it would be reasonable to conclude that gas eruptions occur on Mars today and are the primary source of atmospheric water vapor distribution.

The Phoenix lander has shown the depth of water ice stability. The polar regions are a source of layered ice deposition and regional not global atmospheric moisture by sublimation. This process is disrupted during dry periods that define the layers we see with dust deposition.

We see most water eruptions in craters but major water eruptions occur on a grand scale from time to time.

This is an image from ESA, It shows:

Area I- Eruption site location

Area II- Shore lines

Area III- Areas of ponding with cratering nearly absent. This would indicate recent I believe.

Fred

If you take the time to look at the images above you must be so excited. The image of a gas plume along side a volcano should have made head-lines. How could a rock person pass that up?

I will present several images to follow with descriptions that I believe with the current Phoenix Lander data that will be overwhelming in support of the current source of water on Mars as sub-surface eruption. The level of ice stability at 85 North Latitude is the greatest discovery so far on this mission. We now have a base-line, yes I said a base-line.

I believe we can all agree that the imaging data leaves a lot to be desired at the rover sites with the JPEG haze and color issues. these will not be reconciled in my life-time. The images are fascinating nevertheless with both water and bio links possible. The images show both vents and possible fluid as well as vapor eruptions. The NASA team has published frost reports so condensation is a reality at the Opportunity site. Viking showed frost or snow at the surface and ESA has shown Mega -scale eruptions and surface ice in craters. This image taken in context with the Phoenix data is another nail in the coffin of the current theory of polar sublimation as the only source of water on Mars.

As I present images we should give credit to NASA, ESA and Hort. If Hort had not been around to clean up the NASA JPEG’s then a lot of woo-woo’s would have been left to the sensationalist. If ESA had not let a few images slip through the crack we would know less and NASA for starting this argument, enough pandering.

This image shows white ice in a crater floor. What do we know? At the Phoenix site we have seen the sloooow ice sublimation rate in the shade. We would think it should be faster in unprotected areas. We know that Mars has global dust storms with global dust deposition including Olivine it would appear. How could this be?

The short answer is this is a water eruption from a crater floor. If 12 million years is recent in geological terms then this is an hour old.. This ice is not covered in dust or cracked and frayed by temperature extremes or sublimation. Nice and smooth and white, recent for sure. More to come

Fred

I wish this forum would install an edit button to help with double post.

I forgot to mention the white frost on the right side crater wall. This is a vapor condensation wind tail. I guess we know the wind direction in this industrial vacuum.

Fred

Forgot to mention MRO. The MRO team is not high on my list. You would think they would have buzzed by the image above, not. They spend too much time in Russell Crater. If you want a butte or dune they will snap a shot. Nothing better to do with a high resolution camera I suppose Color, forget about it. False color for you.

All the image captions crack me up Defrosting dunes. Yes, yes indeed. An oversimplification I think so. I will give you an example. Image 1. They would caption this image warming house. This would be correct, but an over simplified I think.

Image 2 is a MRO crop from Dana Johnson. This shows a slurry close with gravity induced slide. Water vapor condensation and disposition further out, think snow gun.

Freddy

Image 1

Image 2

Now we have mentioned all the missions and we should tie them together.

I propose Polar sublimation is not plausible as the only source of water on Mars. Layers of cut offs are seen in the images. Orbiting satellites have shown mega-scale water eruptions. I have presented a Hort image of dry vents. Now I will be so bold as to reconcile the Rover data.

A few woo woo’s have come on this forum and said they seen water in the jpeg haze. A lot of these images have been ignored as fines as the image was all inclusive.

You would think after all these years that Opportunity would roll over a wet spot. This would be obvious as change in rover track and surface characteristics would be visible. This is the image. It was not long ago.

Difference is the key. Evaporations and exposure of salts or crystallization of water ice. It does not matter the explanation, the catalyst is the same, phase change.

Sweet

Feddy

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2238/2143862574_4125473c4c_o.png

Now just one more thing. The phoenix boys have not gave us much to look at so far. Water does not mean Bio.

The rover site have presented many questions about Berries. Image 1 is an image from the great Hort with an arrow pointing to what looks like a muddy Berry.

Image 2 is a dry Berry with the same characteristics at the Opportunity site. This is the only possible Bio-link I have seen with the limited visible data. I think this is a Mann image.

Freddy

Image 1

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3133/2573452375_7169e27071_o.png

Image 2

To be honest, I am disappointed you boys missed all that stuff.

Freddy

Maybe the mathematicians can give us some data on those last two images. Just wondered what the difference was between equatorial and polar Berries.

Freddy

This song goes out to Sir Charles from Xeontech Research, God bless him and Darwin. It is hot in Phoenix.

These aren’t college boys talking.

Fredddy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlWjm0cPF5U