MECA-OM Images - Page 18

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rpage Author Profile Page


Posts: 655

Reply: 341



PostPosted: September 18, 2008 11:21 PM 

Yes, the scale of the image is lost on most folks. However, I'd bet at least 30% of your viewing audience can visualize scale(L X W X H) in some manner. If your images (here) are 1 mm wide then we are seeing mostly clay and silt particles. The smallest sand particle is 0.075 millimeters in diameter. Silt and clay particles are smaller, repectively.
Any particle less than 0.075 mm would be a silt or a clay particle.....that is geology bible speak stuff for most American geology folks (maybe 1-5% of the populatation).

Yes you are right, your time is best spent racing ahead of the avalanch!!! I believe that there is quality world class science that is attainable in all of your images!
Much more important/amazing than the average joe's amusement,... although that is what pays the bills in most endeavors.

rpage Author Profile Page


Posts: 655

Reply: 342



PostPosted: September 18, 2008 11:32 PM 

You are right in spending your time to reach out to as many as possible peple for free.
I can't tell you how much I appreciate your images, they are amazing!

Dan


Posts: 4

Reply: 343



PostPosted: September 19, 2008 9:18 AM 

HORTON; "Er, rpage, the scale is simple. the images are about 1 mm wide. Now your average Joe ( unless he is non-American ) doesn't know millimeters from millipedes so why bother?

The 3 frame montages are around 3 millimeters. The stitching overlap is all over the place and focus effects the scale, so it is never exactly any one number."

He explains anyway. Smile MM = .0396 just over 1/32" on the tape measure.

The last picture he "Horton" posted was fricking incredible.

dp

Most of us humans do have our peculularities, don't we?

danajohnson Author Profile Page


Posts: 1195

Reply: 344



PostPosted: September 19, 2008 9:19 AM 

Pending a response from Stu on posting some closeups of the animated GIF 'movie he has on his site, I have to show a few of these to you all, as this is the 'hot' news item at work, as well as very beautiful color work by himself.
The 'rolling rock' does indeed match the basic shaping of the 'cantilever tip' I was posting enlarged a couple pages earlier in this topic list. The match means this is statistically impossible to present as a question of the earlier item being a Earth traveller as I had thought. These must be the same class of item, and Martian at source.
These progress from the enlarged colorized and tone mapped graphics, rotated to vertical growth alignment, to the less altered and smaller view of the cropped collection of particles nearby the 'rolling particle'.
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Can a stem like this be a non-life item? We have some talking to do about the prospects for viral and organic influence on crystalline growths.
Stu has a beautiful set of images at the site, and these newer color images by others here should complement the mix of closeups that can be shown.

danajohnson Author Profile Page


Posts: 1195

Reply: 345



PostPosted: September 19, 2008 9:32 AM 

A few additional image alterations of the side view of the flower shaped assembly which matches the pyramid shaped 'cantilever tip' I mistook for a manufactured Earth item. We are making progress on the Phoenix mission in just a quarter of a year. Can this be only mineral and crystalline growth? A sequence, with a core of a pyramid single crystal mass, and a fixed pattern this elaborately repeated?
In working these, the green band carried the best definition of tones and shaping, as seen in the black and white translation image.
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The negative view gives good defined edges.
What will tomorrow bring?

danajohnson Author Profile Page


Posts: 1195

Reply: 346



PostPosted: September 19, 2008 9:43 AM 

One of the views of the 'cantilever tip' I am referencing from earlier pages in this topic, also an Optical Microscope(OM) image in color.
Strip away the lobed outer assembly, and these two items would seem to match very closely. Too close a match for any chance occurance.
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Fred


Posts: 638

Reply: 347



PostPosted: September 19, 2008 9:46 AM 

Horton said:

“Er, how many times do I have to say it? There is no scientific value to my images. They are an idle amusement of an interplanetary tourist.”

I see no difference in the scientific value of you images than that of NASA. You at least are honest enough to say your images are not true color and have never made such a claim.

I see no manipulation of your images. You get your data from the same trough as everyone else. If your images can not be applied to the current science then none can.

It took me years to develop an understanding of what you do. You look for subtle changes in the spectrum, see the difference and sharpen the images for us to see. It is up to us to realize the spectrum involved. Without you we would be left to the NASA images that hide the detail in the JPEG haze and tell us what we see. I personally place less value on NASA images than yours. I have seen them manipulate MRO images to cartoon status to hide data. They have lost their credibility.

Yes we are all tourist. What amazes me is how if you post any Mars image in a forum most will scratch their head and wonder what it is. If you do not believe me try it, even the simple ones. Most just can not see. Looks like a fuzzy x-ray.

I would never post a Dana Johnson image. He works at the quantum level, but his images have a place for the scientific mind.

I would rather ride on the bus with you guys.. You can have your box back now. Hope I did not scratch the floor.

Fred

danajohnson Author Profile Page


Posts: 1195

Reply: 348



PostPosted: September 19, 2008 10:22 AM 

I hope it was my comments that drove Fred to aspire to 'interplanetary critique' status today, and not so much the strange imaging techniques.
I could have posted just the very nice color still side view of the complex, organized object, but, as Fred points out above, so many cannot really 'see' and translate the details to a particular set of ideas, historical images recollections, or even to current image releases. I was a little deficient in not issuing the sol date, but I am now working on the original image sources by back-tracking from Stu's site animation. Many do not give all the details we would want in each post. Hope this was not offensive in that regard.
I really can't apologize for the simplification, nor the bright colors in my alterations. They are used to determine the absolute value of the brightness and color tones in the images. Some missing subtle information can be drawn from the techniques.
What is your take, Fred? Are these two days items really the same item type, or can we be seeing again, a one-in-a-million chance occurrence on Mars, of a type never seen in Earth photos?
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The 3D simulation/translation of the earlier 'cantilever tip' item, from a prior days OM.
Are these sufficient to give motivation for a treasure hunt for more?

Stu


Posts: 278

Reply: 349



PostPosted: September 19, 2008 11:11 AM 

Thank you for the kind words dana. Please, feel free to use anything of mine you like.

danajohnson Author Profile Page


Posts: 1195

Reply: 350



PostPosted: September 19, 2008 11:12 AM 

Two additional views of the possibly misidentified and misnomered 'cantilever tip' item. These two were processed in the AFM CFM software know as SPIP which can be downloaded as a trial or evaluation full functioning software package. Image Metrology makes the software available with the presentation on equipment sales. It seems to work very well, but this is only cursory simple images I produced using it.
Two views of the altered item I am offering as a possible match for the current item at reply #244 & 245.
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Unless someone has a comment I'll work on something else. I can see the related content, but as with the MER imaging, we all like be careful about jumping to conclusions, and we don't even have acknowledgment from NASA about these items to my knowledge.

Fred


Posts: 638

Reply: 351



PostPosted: September 19, 2008 11:23 AM 

Dana,

I think that my post 316 on this thread clearly shows that it take all of us to do science. Do I believe that this is geological chance, no. this is clear evidence of repetition of bio-signatures pure and simple. If some geo type could produce an earth Comparison that would be great, but I will be quick to put it in context.

The mainstream guard will tell you we can see Jesus on toast. I hope we have enough sense to realize we are looking at toast. To down grade the visible data to such silliness is to preclude us from expressing an opinion without fear. This in fact makes us blind.

Hort looks at what he does. You look at what you do. I put the two together. Together the tell a great story of the complexity of the Mars artic. I believe we have seen life on Mars. Can anyone else see it I have no idea.

I am mostly a cloud guy. When I say that clouds are a particular type that is because I look at them every day of my life. This is an example of morning starta-fractus transitioning to Cumulus-Humulus on Earth taken 30 minutes ago outside my house. Look familiar?

Now Dana I will not pretend to understand everything you do but I look at everything you do. Visible data is important. Without it we are blind. Thank good for the image guys.

Fred

danajohnson Author Profile Page


Posts: 1195

Reply: 352



PostPosted: September 19, 2008 11:42 AM 

As my time in this is very limited, are there other precise matches, or similar possible inorganic growths which could be less endowed with the organic complex build of the 'rolling particle'?
What is the group name convention for the particle in particular/
Are geology trained persons prepared as yet to identify a common Earth sequence which could give this type of organic complexity to the multiple parted structure?
Are these a core of crystalline mass as a single material, layered by sheathings of other materials, or can the distinct tip point on both, and the general shape be chance?
Stu, I thank you for your patience. You've done very good work in presenting the particle to catch my eye. That's really cute color imagery, as is the work of Horton, LWS, mann, and the many others who work hard here.
Can this be a motive for additional landers, possibly, in the polar regions north and south? Perhaps another MRO satellite finish the work of the first?

danajohnson Author Profile Page


Posts: 1195

Reply: 353



PostPosted: September 19, 2008 12:47 PM 

Fred:
The newer release of Mars night-time clouds appear far closer and more dense than the day-time clouds I viewed early on in the mission. I presume most of the cloud mass is water, water/ice, rather than CO2.
Can we look forward to CO2 fog banking in the arctic night-time right at the ground level around Phoenix? Water frost driven by the colder mass of CO2 should keep the surface clear of water vapor shouldn't it? I was watching my daily 2 liter bottle of sub-freezing soda pop establish a heavy water frost covering last night, and the frost was thick enough to make the label disappear. In the bottle was a compressed CO2 driven cold well, carrying the water vapor from the air like a sponge soaking up liquid water. The water vapor on Earth has some nucleated liquid water content with the actual vapor. You would know better about such details as that than I.
The bottle upon my opening it, still sub-freezing, began the cascading water-ice formation descending towards the bottom from the top, till nearly all the water mass was an ice slush. I banged the bottom very slightly, and the usual cryovolcano of liquid water erupted from the ice mass as it continued to expand and pressurize the bottle(fixed volume) container.
I had driven the vapor to frost ice cover at the surface, then a impact drove the cryovolcano to flow for many minutes vertically across a table and onto the floor where the water viscosity transferred all the supersaturated mineral-laden liquids to a paper thin layer of liquid cover.
Mars in a 2 liter bottle once again. Day after day.
I'll try to participate in your weather topics.

LWS Author Profile Page


Posts: 3062

Reply: 354



PostPosted: September 19, 2008 11:12 PM 

Hi Dana

There are several particles of the type you referred to in your reply #346 and others. They can be found in particles in most silicone substrate exposures. e.g. here is a sol 114 image showing a number of such particles. It may be useful to research the occurence of such particles with depth, proximity to the ice layer, etc.

Winston

hortonheardawho Author Profile Page


Posts: 3465

Reply: 355



PostPosted: September 20, 2008 1:07 AM 

er, does anyone else "see" the perfectly round transparent sphere in the upper right corner of reply 354?

To my fevered brain it looks as if we are seeing stuff behind a transparent ball.

Iy's definitely time for sleep.

LWS Author Profile Page


Posts: 3062

Reply: 356



PostPosted: September 20, 2008 8:48 AM 

Hort

I'm not certain if I see the transparent sphere you referred to above but I do see at least one. However, the silicone substrates seem to be replete with spheres, filaments, blobs, etc. which seem to be features of the media itself and not of the martian dust.

Winston

Dan


Posts: 4

Reply: 357



PostPosted: September 20, 2008 10:56 AM 

ref. object middle of picture 1/3 of way up sol 112 reply 340 posted by Horton.

It appears to be a gill of some sort. A highly efficient one at that. Thin filaments not needed. More like a man made gill.
dp

danajohnson Author Profile Page


Posts: 1195

Reply: 358



PostPosted: September 20, 2008 11:59 AM 

Once I made a slide of a small blister/papule from the skin surface, and found upon examining for possible very large virus or cells rutured at 2,000x view(down to about 1/3 micron lower limit size range), a very obviously mechanically perfect flat transparent plate, upon which was a regular grid pattern of offset holes, about a miron in size per hole, spaced about 3-5 microns apart. Finding an object like that in human body fluid sample can be a life changing event. It was partial, small, and broken. I had to feref my suspicions to the source of the slide, which was a Electron Microscopy supply vendor, but just seeing such an unexpected sight in a sample can alter range of human imagination. These various unidentified suggestive 3D items we find on Mars are hopefully having that effect in these groups studying the return photos. Whatever the outcome, we are perfecting an approach to group analysis of possible first sightings of new discoveries.
As I mentioned prior Horton, the best strategy for acclimating to that medium is try the Stardustathome site image stack 'movies'. They show a near limitless range of silicone type inclusions, bubbles patterns, landscape0like structures, and some of the most organic looking shaped items I've ever seen. I imagine we'll not know which transparent items are really particles without shadowscast, or some inclusion contents showing. I would certainly like to see a drop or two of liquids.
Did you notice the very flexible and 'strechable' membrane like bright item at the left side of the 'poppy' shaped bulb? It was in the linear string of rounded colored micro-spheres in the diagonal path to the left.
That bright membrane like shape seems to have modeled the available surface of the substrate, as did the prior particles I had displayed in the early 'nano array' OM images. The material has tensile strength, apparent flexibility at -10C to -100C, and is seperately a struture of a single material in appearances. Quite a tall order for any non-living mineral material, even a clay type. We see so much of these examples over the years on Mars, yet it all seems to slide into obscurity again and again. I think history has been made.
A device to capture frost by diurnal deposition, and utilzing sublimation pressurization, could give a small percentage of the Earth's CO2, as we know. Why not a system of non-vascular life with local energy production, for available gas pressure? Skipping the pressurized transport would save most all the complexity and energy expense of a living item. It could also be a frost-to-gas chamber for a low pressure system?
I'll look for the bubble or gill shapes when I return later today.

hortonheardawho Author Profile Page


Posts: 3465

Reply: 359



PostPosted: September 20, 2008 2:46 PM 

sol 114 view of OM36 with links to sol 110-114 comparisons:

the most interesting comparison is this one, which shows a slight movement of the long rod at the bottom of the frame.

sol 114 OM37:

with links to changes between 110-114.

I spent the morning playing with the EDF plugin, trying to get a decent image of this area without much success. I'm about ready to give up trying to extract 3D from the JPG images.

This EDF 3D effort has pretty well convinced me that I don't have the tools or the data to do the job.

I really miss "real" 3D in these images.

Horace Heffner


Posts: 16

Reply: 360



PostPosted: September 20, 2008 3:30 PM 

I'm new here. See my 5 second video at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O68Xop-WpM

Source and background info is at:
http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/MarsLichen.pdf

There is all kinds of stuff in motion in the Sol 112 Phoenix
micrographs. This is to me an indication of living material, lichen-like material.

For example, a browser can be used to overlay register and then toggle between the following three photos, all taken using a red light source, and having slightly differing focus points. The above video was provided as an easy substitute for this process. It shows unmistakable motion of many objects, some flat or leaf-like, some clumps rotating about on thin stalks:

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=32742&cID=298

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=32764&cID=298

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=32772&cID=298

Some of the Sol 112 photos show what may be Perithecia, little ball like fruiting bodies with now opening ostioles.

Horace Heffner

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