MECA-OM Images - Page 17

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hortonheardawho Author Profile Page

Posts: 3465

Reply: 321

PostPosted: September 17, 2008 2:11 PM 

sol 111 OM36 ( silicone )montage:

sol 111 OM18 ( stitching, aka MECA plaque ) montage:

Finally, another suspected AFM scan in OM54 is here.

This AFM scan apparently caused the sample cell to rotate.

You gott'a wonder how good a scan will be when the sample cell rotates a zazillion microns during the scan -- or when the scanning tears apart the subject.

danajohnson Author Profile Page

Posts: 1195

Reply: 322

PostPosted: September 17, 2008 2:35 PM 

Watching from the side-lines, here, as the items are processed by all. Quite a nice collection of details in the composite OM image from sol 110, cell 39. The original entry of #294-295, and the many subsequent seem to have mentioned most of the details that are suggestive, and I was thinking 'this just HAS to be nucleated lumpy crystalline growths, which can be at times very wide ranging and curious in variations in some mineral combinations. Then again, I can't know what these are, without detailed oven results, or other instrument testing.
I have stolen a crop of Horton's composite, reduced the garish contrast some, and reversed to a negative to see the 'other reality' we miss often. It seems as suggestive, and more so in negative. The radially aligned rounded lumps, the radial rods from limpet-like sheathing conical structures, and the many barely viewable rods or wiry nearly straight growths which have some curvature could be any number of objects. In the negative, the coloration of the rounded linear array seemed too cute to not post here. My apologies to Horton for the incursion on his work.
I believe this was 2x of his original size, from the focused area at the center.
I particularly like the upper right corner sheath with the collar extension, mirroring the shaded recess matching shape just to the left of the dark blue collar linear pattern. Too much here for any action seen to be accident, or incidental chance patterning.
Could this all be a series of mineral assemblies without the fabled 'missing liquid water' to boost the process?
Can the ices on Mars serve as a substitute for liquids in crystalline assemblies, setting aside the constraints presumed against both inorganic and organic crystallinity?



danajohnson Author Profile Page

Posts: 1195

Reply: 323

PostPosted: September 17, 2008 3:26 PM 

While dismembering Horton's works, here are a few 4x croppings of the lower left corner 'thread' item seen. Not much image detail, but either the pixellation has vignetted qualities, or the 'wire' or thread is braided or sectioned. Positive, negative, posterized at 32 tones and solarized to show the isolation of the wire tonalities and the odd dark spot midway along it. The darkest item on the cropping is the dark spot.
The last is a positive solarized slightly to show how the reduced pixellation also shows strong patterned brightness variation.
A regular build to whatever 'it' is.





Does not appear metallic to me.

danajohnson Author Profile Page

Posts: 1195

Reply: 324

PostPosted: September 17, 2008 3:35 PM 

Placing those five crops at Horton's reply #321, from sol 111, OM36. That thread or otherly item isn't missing. Is it from the lander?

danajohnson Author Profile Page

Posts: 1195

Reply: 325

PostPosted: September 17, 2008 4:08 PM 

This isn't as obvious a use of a 3D graphing as I'd want, but it is pretty, and along the center at top, the wire type shape shows as a series of peaks above the surrounding particle surface. Bright and periodic in tone. Somewhat irregular, but the imaging is marginal, and it was a 4X enlargement.


LWS Author Profile Page

Posts: 3062

Reply: 326

PostPosted: September 17, 2008 10:25 PM 

Hi Dana
Nice images at reply 323

All; Another sol 112 composite. This time from the edge of OM 35, a weak magnet substrate. This image has the greatest concentration of cell like particles I have seen so far with various shapes; joined or individual; different colours; etc. Would like a geological explanation for them. The particles resemble those on the before images of the silicone substrate. But this is a weak magnet.



Posts: 161

Reply: 327

PostPosted: September 17, 2008 11:30 PM 

To compare as an anology some shapes.

some types here share common ground with Merdiani.

such as the "starfish" shapes

Who's shape (who's) With shape changes with maturity.

mineral encrusted, with time.

i love this image.

i'm in trouble for spending to much time , reading on the manganese oxides today on the computer. time to face the music.

nice images you guys.

one more from me before i go.

hortonheardawho Author Profile Page

Posts: 3465

Reply: 328

PostPosted: September 17, 2008 11:57 PM 

sol 112 accidental OM 3D:

The few particles that moved "just so" to create a 3D effect makes clear the woeful oversight for not providing a way to create OM 3D. What were they expecting? rocks?

I have done a few of the "raw" RGBs for the zoom sequences that are still coming down and it is clear that many of them will be difficult to register because of the stuff moving around - but on a positive note a few may yield some interesting 3D.

There is enough strangeness in these two images to keep you busy for a while.

Unfortunately, I have a busy day scheduled for tomorrow so I will not be able to do much with the images...


Posts: 161

Reply: 329

PostPosted: September 18, 2008 1:06 AM 

Wow, another nice OM 3d, Thanks!

even when only a few grains are 3d, its well worth viewing, Thanks for the time spent.

The most present of the grains are the small blue ones. FC.

possible analogies?


danajohnson Author Profile Page

Posts: 1195

Reply: 330

PostPosted: September 18, 2008 6:06 AM 

To replace the small unreadable graph at reply 325, referencing Horton's original image at reply 321, on the top of this page, of sol 111, OM 36, here is a larger, marked, version of the graph.
The 'thread' is highlight peaked along the section marked, and you can see the very consistent tonal range of the highlights in the tiny thread shape.


The thread is probably too soft for the AFM tips, and I imagine the object is well understood by NASA and related researchers.
We need an imaging device giving displays such as Mann's above, in real time imaging.
Real-time SEM's, by some magical methods.
These items in the soil clumps are obviously not chance assembled, but were developing after the grain assemblies were adhering and consolidating as a new soil surface, rather than a decay of a ground-mass as a solid.

LWS Author Profile Page

Posts: 3062

Reply: 331

PostPosted: September 18, 2008 8:09 AM 

Hi Dana

re your "These items in the soil clumps are obviously not chance assembled, but were developing after the grain assemblies were adhering and consolidating as a new soil surface, rather than a decay of a ground-mass as a solid."

I've been thinking along the same lines.


LWS Author Profile Page

Posts: 3062

Reply: 332

PostPosted: September 18, 2008 8:47 AM 


re.your #328 and the comment on not doing OM 3-Ds, I had intended to mention this long ago but it slipped me. They obviously have a way to do OM 3-ds if they want.

All they have to do is take an image at a particular stage position, say 6134, and then rotate the stage to, say position 6160, and take another image. The two images should show a 3D effect for at least the bigger particles.

That shouldn't be too difficult.


hortonheardawho Author Profile Page

Posts: 3465

Reply: 333

PostPosted: September 18, 2008 9:44 AM 

sol 112 OM35 EDF 3D:

I knew there had to be an imagej plugin to do this from the EDF output and topography images.

I will do more this evening when I have the time.


Posts: 56

Reply: 334

PostPosted: September 18, 2008 1:22 PM 

Look at Stu's work:

What can cause that behaviour?

danajohnson Author Profile Page

Posts: 1195

Reply: 335

PostPosted: September 18, 2008 4:14 PM 

Re, Stu's site blog animation:
Other than the stage impulses transferred to the clumps, I can see some very odd shaping in the clumps. The small bright spot at the bottom of the clump in greatest motion, is very odd, and appears very small, giving me a second thought about the pyramid shaped 'cantilever tip' type item I showed closeup's of. That point of brightness is one of the brightest on the image, but is at a steep angle to the light, in near shade.
Below and to the left of the clump, or large particle item of greatest motion, is a string of about 7-8 small same sized but differently colored particles in alignment and not moving. The series has affixed to the substrate apparently, and is not inclined to roll around. The differing coloration of those appear very close to the varying coloration of the 'bead string' type assembly of 4 or 5 same sized rounded particles in the sol 110 image which I showed in negative tonal view at reply #322.
The similarity of a linear series of regular sized and rounded particles in a fixed array seems very odd statistically. The slight color variation of each should mean the composition, or 'design' is varied despite the obvious same source of construction.
Why so many chance similarities with so much correlation between image groups?
Mars is cute, odd, and very challenging.
If Stu gives his permission, I could display a crop of the 'bead string', but I should ask first.
Located just to the lower left of the 'rolling' unusual shaped patterned larger particle., seen in Zoost's link just prior.

I need to acknowledge the source of the software for the 3D graphs and images, as the SPIP people are very kind to give evaluation downloads of their fine software.

I notice Image J has also a large number of plug-ins, and new analysis macros, add-ons.

hortonheardawho Author Profile Page

Posts: 3465

Reply: 336

PostPosted: September 18, 2008 5:57 PM 

sol 33 EDF 3D of OM5 ( strong magnet ):

I decided to download the latest versions of imagej and all the plugins that I use. The latest version of the EDF has more processing options that I am still learning how to use.

Wow. Out of the box and the new EDF images look great.

Then ran the new anaglyph. Holy crap! maybe NASA doesn't have a use for "real" OM 3D!

I will run a few tests to see just how much of the fine detail is believable.

I have delayed doing sol 112 OM images because there are still missing files.

Did I say "wow"?


Posts: 638

Reply: 337

PostPosted: September 18, 2008 7:09 PM 


Your sol 112 accidental 3D has a couple of bouquets up-right and one on its side. Several of these type features. Can you do a comparison with your new software?



Posts: 4

Reply: 338

PostPosted: September 18, 2008 8:01 PM 


Thanks for the wonderful images. That looks like a periwinkle in Sol 33 Smile

I've been lurking for some time and really enjoy this site.

Would it be possible for you guys to give us the dimensions of these little critters (or rocks) UMs or microns some of us might not relate to, yet are fascinated by the discoveries.

It might help to attract more viewers.


rpage Author Profile Page

Posts: 655

Reply: 339

PostPosted: September 18, 2008 10:03 PM 

Horton!!! those are amazing,
I can see crystals of magnetic minerals, some even translucent!

Reply 336 image is just crazy! Look at that! It looks like there's some kind of colloidal stuff growing in the soil surface of the right side. What are those frosty light colored blobs/grains on the right side of the image? Some look like they are connected! Surely that must be a trick of light or pixelation?

I agree with Dan, Hort your images are a once in a lifetime mindblowing experience.
The time that anyone of us would have to spend to consistantly create images similar to yours would be months to years and even then the images would likely not be as good.

Thank you again for the free ride.
I'm certain that NASA would have a place for you as a consultant...full or part time. I'm surprised that you haven't been appproached (or maybe you have). NASA budget woes could certainly proclude active recruitment.

I was hoping that if you happen across the scale of your images in UMs, microns, millimeters, centimeters, or whatever scale they use, or what might be applicable.

Your images would be more amazing/valuable to many scientists (50% or more) if a scale was included (maybe along the bottom of the image or in an area where there is no useful data).

Interpretation of soils in based in part on particle size. I wouldn't spend too much time on this but if the scale was handy you might throw it in.

Dan is right, higher level professionals would look at your stuff more frequently and maybe comment more frequently here. Talent like yours is rare and tossing in a scale would be easy. Whenever I submitted geology pics to my professors they always scolded me for a lack of scale. I include a scale on most geology and some biology pics now.

I think this lack of scale has hampered the general public's appreciation of nearly everyone's posted images and NASAs posted images. Without a scale, it is like there is a whole missing DIMENSION (or three) in the image additional dimension or three that is easily attainable.

I don't mean to be a whiner, I'm just sayin.
Thanks again for spending so much time to polish the mysteries of science and show us the trophies!!!!

Thanks Hort!

hortonheardawho Author Profile Page

Posts: 3465

Reply: 340

PostPosted: September 18, 2008 10:52 PM 

sol 112 EDF 3D crop of the weirdest of the weird:

The rest of the missing sol 112 filters and missing data images were not posted tonight, and the new images are into sol 113, so I guess that the filters necessary to complete the focus sequence will never be posted.

I did a little research on the EDF algorithm and it looks like there is a requirement that the images be focus zoomed through the optical axis.

If you look carefully at the OM zooms - that is not the case. I have never figured out exactly how the OM is pointed and focused. There seems to be a missing third coordinate in play in the OM positioning that effects the performance of the imagej EDF plugin. I play a "trick" on the algorithm that mostly works - but the deep depth of field of this image may defeat the trick. Bummer.

Er, rpage, the scale is simple. the images are about 1 mm wide. Now your average Joe ( unless he is non-American ) doesn't know millimeters from millipedes so why bother?

The 3 frame montages are around 3 millimeters. The stitching overlap is all over the place and focus effects the scale, so it is never exactly any one number.

I think my time is better spent racing ahead of the avalanche of new images.

Er, how many times do I have to say it? There is no scientific value to my images. They are an idle amusement of an interplanetary tourist.

But glad you were able to get something out of them.

Er, say, what kind of rocks are perfect brown shiney spheres?

It is amusing to me that the oddest thing in the above image is the simplest looking.

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