Phoenix on Mars - Page 25

Hi Mark Carey / FMR

I think that the last 10 posts from Fred should be removed.

Winston

Me too

Fred

Barsoomer

Some questions I would like to hear answered at the Monday Press conference;

What were the results of the latest TECP tests? Did they again suggest absolute dryness of the lower levels of soil?

How do you reconcile the dryness suggested by the "leaked" TECP results with the various signs from the images that suggest that the surface could not be dry?

The release of CO2 and H2O between 200 and 1000 deg C in the TEGA test probably indicated breakdown of unspecified Organics. Why were there no indications as to the level of complexity of these organics given the capabilities and lack thereof of the TEGA instrument?

Why was'nt the RAC used to get higher resolution images of the soil in situ and after disturbance?

Why were'nt more OM images taken at different focal lengths to get clearer images of the weirdness seen in many of the soil particles?

Did any of the Astrobiologists on the team indicate that there were several particles which, from a visual examination only, might have been either of a biological or of a geological origin? If so, was any attempt made to reimage these particles at different stage positions and focal lengths to get a more comprehensive picture of them as well as better resolution?

The most common particles in the OM were the reddish yellow particles that might be clay. Were they clay? if so, how do you explain the ubiquitous presence of small spherical bodies within those particles?

What was the distribution and concentration of the perchlorates in the soil profile? Were there more in the surface soil?

Since perchlorate of itself has no overweening effect on habitability, Why was the perchlorate red herring used to dampen the effects of the earlier habitability statement?

I don't think that most of these questions will not be asked or answered but it would be good to get some answers to some of them.

Winston

Barsoomer, I didn't know perchlorates tend to be hygroscopic. I wrote a post suggesting that water absorbing clays might be the reason the TECP was not able to detect liquid water films on the surface at the Phoenix site.
Perhaps the perchlorates alone could do this.

Bob Clark

Some perchlorate salts are hygroscopic, and some are not. For example, the sodium and magnesium salts are, but potassium and ammonium are not. Hence the use of the latter but not the former in rocket propellant. Magnesium perchlorate is sometimes used in electronic dehumidifiers.

sol 122 TEGA delivery of ice:

The Ice, er - robot - Cometh. ( TEGA now sort'a looks like a rundown bar filled with stories of failure.)

If a sample of the H2O is important, why wasn't the last two doors opened and ice dumped on both? Will they open?

sol 123 of OFB after sampling:

My guess now is that the "white stuff" in reply 486 is shavings from the OFB. It looked too white - in fact "bluish- white" - in the scoop - but there were no images showing sampling.

Perhaps the press conference will discuss the OFB.

Naaaah.

Some press conference results:

1. Ph is *buffered* to 8.3, same as sea water on Earth.

2. Calcium carbonate at 7% or more confirmed by both TEGA and MECA.

3. Phyllosilicate clays also abundant.

4. Extreme dryness of soil might be related to perchlorate prevalence.

5. So far "not able to claim organics" but apparently some weak or ambiguous signal for such. Not a lot of organic material, if present.

Thank's for the summary, Barsoomer.

I was going to post something like it - but was just too depressed after the event to respond.

Why bother? Why bother.

There was an official mention of the onservation of "fall streaks of ice crystals" ( snow ) and a comment about fog, frost and clouds observed every day as the temperature continues to fall.

Organics will the searched for in every remaining TEGA sample.

Dr. Smith made the case that the Phoenix environment is at most millions of years old ( sitting on the ejecta of a "recent" crater. ) and that the water-induced geochemistry is "recent". He seemed to be on the verge of declairing the site "habitable", but is most likely holding back until all the numbers are in.

The key remaining tasks are OFB analysis -- and isotopic ratios from an ice sample.

The Martian weather will have the final say.

Hort / Barsoomer

Looks like the case for life has been strengthened somewhat.

Winston

Personally, I feel confident that there is life on Mars, even near the surface. However, I expect it to be pretty sparse. On Earth, it seems to be the case that life is less prevalent, or at least more difficult to find, in harsh environments. I would think the Atacama is perhaps like a Garden of Eden compared to typical environments on Mars.

What might be interesting is if the potentially organic signature varies widely in different TEGA runs. That might suggest that the organic material occurs in concentrated "lumps." Which is what one would expect if it depended on whether an occasional organism was captured in the sample or not.

Those apparently moving orange blobs that Horton captured in his OM animation are intriguing. They seem to be about 100 microns in length, are they? It sure would be nice to get an AFM image of one.

sol 125 RAC "3D":

I just want to scream when I see these unfocused sequences.

What the (- insert bad word -) is wrong with the (- insert a long list of depricating and insulting names -) who are programming the imaging?!

These images, coupled with the set of unfocused OM images from the past few sols, makes my blood pressure rise and I just have to step back and get away from Mars for a while.

See you in a few days.

sol 126, 127 Marzipan Recipes in a scoop:

OK, my guess that this white stuff is shaved ice - not shaved OFB ( organic free blank )

But since NASA isn't saying, it might well be another interplanetary joke: confectionary sugar and ground almonds.

Link referenced on the blue board.

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/local/98578.php

This is an interview with Peter Smith, the Phoenix PI.

Quote:

Now we're investigating the properties of the soil that are telling us that the ice actually melted over time.

I wonder if this means they have finally measured the D/H ratio?

Another quote from Barsoomers link.
"
"A Because of the difficulties collecting samples through the summer, some of our most interesting science has been pushed right to the end of the mission. We are scurrying frantically to do these really important final tasks. One is to try and make the case there are organic materials on Mars at this site, and we haven't been able to do that yet. But we have some ideas on how we might accomplish that. Either a yes or a no would be good, not a maybe."

the race is on.

Barsoomer. I don't think sulfates have been found at Phoenix have they?
One theory about the lack of carbonates at other sites is acidic soil due to the presence of sulfuric acid as indicated by the abundant sulfates, which would tend to decompose the carbonates.
Perhaps the presence of carbonates is due to the lack of sulfates and/or alkaline soil.

Bob Clark

> I don't think sulfates have been found at Phoenix have they?

That's right. The absence of sulfates and the presence of carbonates is one of the more striking results from the Phoenix site. The carbonates are responsible for the 8.3 buffered ph value.

This is another great Hort image that begs for melting and phase change in the trench.

The team said that the ice was hard as a side walk. That makes sense because it gets cold there. There was a time they used the router to collect ice samples. As time has gone by they have been able to remove more surface material and leave tool marks in the trench after exposure to the sun.

The white areas are, frost on ice, ice shavings and the darker areas are frost heave. Good stuff.

Fred

Now is a good time to be an old man with gray hair. We have seen this before. The Market will bring us to correction. Weather we like it or not. We will be OK.

Fred

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Gw0e3KXD0Q

Stand by Winston. Maybe a big Fred flush coming

Fred

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXdNnw99-Ic