Discovering Pluto etc... - Page 4

And here :

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/08jan_sunshine.htm

The Edge of Sunshine

The problems with photovoltaics are pretty well illustrated in the site Mizar directed us to. But the problems with beaming energy via laser beams or microwaves are not well addressed.

First, beams spread out as 1/r squared, starting at their sources. Whatever the beam diameter is at 100 meters from the source, it is twice that large at 200 meters, and so on. This can be compensated, to some extent, by focusing the beam (at the source) on the intended target. The intended target would be the remote satellite’s receiving array. But the optical system used at the source to accomplish this focusing is inherently limited by its “ diffraction limit ”, determined by the diameter of the optics used.

Suppose the source from which the power beam was launched had Hubble-quality optics to accomplish this focusing. Hubble has an objective diameter of about 2.5 meters, and when operating at an optical wavelength of 5000 Angstroms ( neon laser line) the projected beam would spread at a rate of about 2x10^-7 radians. The “ far-field ” distance of Hubble is about 12.5 million meters. This is the point that a perfectly focused Hubble beam’s spot size is 2.5 meters in diameter. At 25 million meters this spot size has doubled to 5 meters, and so on.

The AU, or mean Earth-Sun distance is about 150 billion meters. Thus over one AU, the Hubble-projected beam’s spot size would have increased from 2.5 meters to 30 thousand meters. Whatever energy was projected from the Hubble optics was, at 12.5 million meters, spread over a spot 2.5 meters in diameter. But, after traveling one AU it is now spread over a spot 30 thousand meters in diameter. This corresponds to a reduction in “ power density ” ( Watts per square meter ) of 144 million to one. To collect all the transmitted energy the receiver array on the satellite being powered would have to have an area of 2.8 billion square meters.

Also, this large receiving array would have to be perfectly aligned with the Hubble transmitting array, and this brings up the other problem with beamed energy: control.

For years no one has seriously considered putting Earth-orbiting solar arrays up to collect energy which would then be beamed back to Earth for this same reason. Thankfully, the specter of an out-of-control satellite sending a tight beam of megawatts of energy towards Earth has kept this plan from becoming a reality.

And, finally, the probably overriding problem: where is this energy supposed to come from in the first place? Before it can be radiated to power a remote satellite, it must first be generated somehow or another.

This leaves us with plutonium. Like it or not, if Earthlings are to explore the solar system, plutonium will be the fuel of choice. That’s why we have already started using it.

Correction: Above I wrote

To collect all the transmitted energy the receiver array on the satellite being powered would have to have an area of 2.8 billion square meters.

Instead, I should have written:

To collect all the transmitted energy the receiver array on the satellite being powered would have to have an area of 706 million square meters.

[link]

update>>>>100 days and climbing.

yt
dx

This thing is moving>>>

[link]

yt
dx

dx, thanks for the link. It's bookmarked !
I wonder when this spacecraft will beat Voyagers 1 and 2 in distance ?

you are very welcome Mizar>>>thanks for the return...

If I[we]live long enough we may see and hear the outcome!!!!LOLOLOL

However, the little probe 'that could' is well on its way now, and yes to the speed of it passing the Pioneer and Voyagers...way out there it certainly is.

I am glad there remains a remnamce of communication,[with the outer probes] a little bleep to be heard by a few remaining diehards who listen for the whimper of these little probes...and we are here on good old Mother Earth trying to eradicate, eliminate or otherwise beat the living hell out of each other...does not not make much sense to me or those with half a brain.

Something is amiss, here. We can not carry this ruthless baggage to outerspace...we may not be accepted!

Serious man has a rude awakening if he wants to continue in a positive scientific direction...OOOHHHH Hell, I don't want to sound that guy in the Penalty Box...but perhaps he could be right!!>[to some extent that is]. Something could be on the horizon, if we are not careful.

For 1 thing, 'we are not certain of anything'.

Do 2 negatives make a positive? Only in Math
you say!

yt
dx

dx, your polite and respectful manner against one of mine posting earlier is very, very welcome and OK, you know....

Yeah.. about these probes, we'll stay on. We only have to be patient
We human will newer tolerate that the space (at least the outer part of our solar system) is too big for us.
That's well demonstrated with probes maked in the 70's.

dx you are right, when I was 11 Man landed on the Moon, I thought by the time I hit 30 I expected to see Man on Mars.

The world put budgets into Bombs, Planes, and the Cold War fuelled the Space Race for all the wrong reasons.

It's Hollywood stuff but if an Asteroid or a visit from another Race came here we would all be together as one Earth. We just cannot see it now.

Two wrongs do not make a right for sure, I too feel there is something bad going to happen. The Guy in the Penalty Box was given a voice and is intellegent but a bit extreme not least Racist and clinging onto old Religious ways.

Science is the truth as we know it but at tmes we should follow instinct too, we are just advanced Earthlings at the end of the day.

You are a Gent and keep it that way.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Mizar, KPM>>>

I am beginning to have doubts now, as to the 'schedule' of future human space flight for the simple reasons you stated above KPM. The world complexities are out weighing the spaceman actions!

I have got to have gravity. Without it we [humans] barely make a dent in space travel.
OK, perhaps we can get to Mars without it...under 500 days, that would be a tremendous undertaking, given the limited conditions to live in as we drift towards the Red planet. A pressurized tin can is all we can produce so far. Even though our imagination is unbounded in design and capability, reality must shape that tincan. I am sure both of you would agree with me on that one.

So, Mizar, the signals from these outdated and overperformed probes remain forthcoming to keep our science faculties intact, its all we have at the moment. And as you say above, ""We only have to be patient""

Well, frankly speaking, time is running out for that [patience] too...we are getting older, even as we type these words and read them.

Keep the faith boys, keep looking up! Its all we have.

yt
dx

dx and Mizar. Sorry for the delayed reply dx, yes, I always will keep looking upwards it's just too fascinating and wonderful.

Have faith - 40 years after the Kitty Hawlk we went through the Sound Barrier.

Light speed? ..... too slow!

Warp factor please Scotty!

Or, Scotty, beam up some probes there
Well, that's too optimistic.

But now, we have New Horizon on it's way.
Far more advanced then Pioners and Voyagers.

KPM>>>

I have made a mistake, gentlemen. I do not have 'faith'.

In my statement 70 above, 'Keep the faith boys, keep looking up!', was an incorrect oxy-moron on my part.

I do not want you to make the assumption that I am a religious being or have anything to do with it...far from it. In my words and in my mind, there is no god and it does not inherit the universe. Not mine anyway!

The word faith should be more grandiose than a simple word with 5 letters in it!

Confidence, comes to mind, as well as, trust and conviction.

These are more poignant words of meaning then good old tried and tried again, 'faith'. But it seems that no one really can express themselves with other words.

If one can keep the religious aspect out of scientific jargon, then its a done deal for scientists. We will then comprehend the scientific works announced. That suits me just fine.

That's what I want and meant above.

Sorry again for the infraction and any confusion that may have taken place.

yt
dx

Hi dx,

The confusion is in reply 73, not 70.

I am confused as to how can a man of logic have no faith in God.

If there were no rich people being poor would be meaningless.

If there was no such thing as being full, being hungry would not have a meaning.

For every deficit there has to be a state of completeness.

Now look at all the imperfections. There has to be a perfect being.

Few would deny that Aristotle was a genius. He calculated the circumference of the Earth with 98% accuracy using measuring sticks and angles of shadows. His contemporaries all believed in many Gods and Goddesses. Yet he believed in one God and this without the teachings of any religion, just by using his logic.

Seems like New Horizons has a couple new targets.
________

Pluto's Newest Moons Named Hydra and Nix

The tiny satellites were discovered by the
Hubble Space Telescope last May and are believed to have been formed from the same giant impact that carved out Charon, Pluto's larger satellite, discovered in 1978.

The names were proposed this spring by the team that discovered the satellites. Before the satellites received their official names, they were called P1 and P2.

In Greek mythology, Nyx was the goddess of the night and the mother of Charon, the boatsman who ferried souls across the River Styx into the underworld ruled by Pluto. The IAU changed the spelling to "Nix" after the Egyptian spelling of the goddess to avoid confusion with two asteroids that had already been named "Nyx."

The outermost of Pluto's two new satellites is named after Hydra, the nine-headed mythological serpent that guarded Pluto's realm.

"We thought it was an appropriately scary image to be the guard at the gate," said Alan Stern, an astronomer at the Southwest Research Institute in Arizona who led the team that initially discovered the satellites

In addition to their relation to Pluto, the names were chosen because their first initials, "N" and "H," are also the first letters of New Horizons, the NASA spacecraft launched in January towards the Pluto system.

The Hubble Space Telescope was providing support for the New Horizons mission when it spotted the tiny satellites.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20060621/sc_space/plutosnewestmoonsnamedhydraandnix

a1call>>>you said this in 74 above.

Regardless of the foray, we can argue this until the cows come home, however, to indulge you, I have made the following comments under yours.

"""Hi dx,

The confusion is in reply 73, not 70."""

I am confused as to how can a man of logic have no faith in God."""

...In my mind logical man is universal but misunderstood. Therefore, mind over matter is common ground and common sense. There is no god to make a dicision. It is mankinds' intentions for charity that is misunderstood. Therefore, a god is required to clear the air for the uninitiated.

"""If there were no rich people being poor would be meaningless."""

...This is a pure political statement, out of the realm of science and into the bureaucracy of the reigning government at the time. Besides, its no ones business how rich or poor an individual is. They are just nosy people complaining.

"""If there was no such thing as being full, being hungry would not have a meaning."""

...again a political statement with good intentions, however, there are underpinning towards an agricultural condition that may be particular to that scene of 'being hungry or full'. The world changes every year as its' cycles continuously show us. Similar to my statement above. We have no control over the weather.

"""For every deficit there has to be a state of completeness."""

...a question of balance, mankmade and self-made productions and deficits..a global market economy condition. The wealth of nations based on productivity and consumption by others who want it and can afford it. It takes time to create a nation of wealth as oppossed to an instantaneously callus boardroom similarity. Even Darwin would oppose this.

"""Now look at all the imperfections. There has to be a perfect being."""

...I see no imperfections nor a perfect being in any of this, just stupidity to comply and compete in the global conditioning of the free world market.
I see no god or godly thing interfering in the works and the world of mankind. It is an old and weary subject, and should be put to bed and buried, quickly.

"""Few would deny that Aristotle was a genius. He calculated the circumference of the Earth with 98% accuracy using measuring sticks and angles of shadows. His contemporaries all believed in many Gods and Goddesses. Yet he believed in one God and this without the teachings of any religion, just by using his logic."""

...Having read Aristole, Plato and Socrates, amongst some other Greeks theorists', I have no argument, just knowledge.

...I trust this gives you a bit of an insight into my character with respect to the realm of the world and its behaviour towards itself.

yt
dx

Has anyone else read this article?

Link

[link]

Czysz seems to be thinking along the same lines as I was in an earlier post. I wonder if a new Pluto probe with an improved propulsion system will go whizzing past New Horizons before it gets to Pluto?

Aldebaran>>

Thank you for that link.

I read that article when it first came out and 'linked' it here in another post at the time.

Its an article that presumes man will somehow have a problem with spaceflight, that, I have never doubted that since I was a kid in the '50's.

But during the past 50 years the Russians and other great scientists are trying to rectify the problem. I am not a scientist but see the danger.

Humans need gravity, 'full gravity'. Its what I have always stated. We are a product of it and will surely die without it. That was a very brave Russian to sacrifice his time and body to the rigors of zero-G...I wouldn't want to do it. However, the Russians are or in the process to shoot for the 500 days in zero-G...what the hell for? We need gravity developement, machinery, and a product that will maintain the very same G-level we have right now on earth.

Space is a dangerous place. There are some hills to climb before its a safe place to exist in.

yt
dx

A good article, I remember seeing pictures of that Russian being chair lifted out of his capsule, he looked pale, old and thin, almost like an alien. I have no doubt if man went into space for long periods he would not be able to return and a whole new species would evolve. Who knows the so called "greys" could be our own race returning to have a look where they came from, time travel permitting of course. However it looks like the Moon is not the answer and we are getting further away from putting a Man on Mars. Propulsion is the key, if only we knew more about dark matter and how to convert it into a fuel like a Whale consumes planktin and turns it into non stop energy.

KPM>>
Do you know what you have done in 44 above?

You have opened the door to some very extraordinary thinking!

What if man did enter space with the total disregard for gravity. He would end up as you say above. And when I read about it too, I became very sensitive to that Russian cosmonaut's plight. If he had actually been sent back to space to live out his remaining days [whatever he had left?]...what possible outcome would he meet with and the scientific minds that had to send him back into space have yet to discover...to save his life?

What an incredible story that would have make.

Its a strange paradox indeed. The absudity of the thought is mindboggling to say the least.

Man 'may' want to exist in such a state of humanization...[who---I don't know] if we can call it that. A bastardization would be better.

I am not into 'grays' or whatever they are called, but what also is interesting is how their new world would be contrived or contructed...technologically that is?

Keep up the good work...you are a thinking man...and that is a process that few earthings possess.

thank you.

yt
dx
more thinking is required here.