Back to the Live Blueberry thesis - Page 8

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Henry Author Profile Page

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PostPosted: October 5, 2007 12:32 PM 

I’m all for gathering more data on Earthly concretions. I'll host/post any images emailed to me.

But I think we will find, again, Lognormal statistics on them.

I think the difference in the Blueberries and Earthly concretions is the amount of water which was available during their formation. I think the blueberries were/are formed by colonial microbes, and these microbes were much more aggressive in their possession of scarce Martian water than were the poor, dumb Martian concretions. So the concretions just “lost out” to the blueberries. The competition between blueberries (for water and sunlight, mainly) generated the ALSP diameter-statistics which we measured.

On Earth, water was so abundant that the concretions could grow virtually without limit, generating the Lognormal statistics.


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PostPosted: October 5, 2007 3:45 PM 

I have now looked at more images of the Martian blueberries and have to agree with the conclusion that they are mineral concretions weathering out of the bedrock. The interior of a blueberry appears featureless. The soil nodules are morphologically variations on a similar theme. Each is different. I do not have time to post an image today but will try do do so over the weekend.

mann Author Profile Page

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PostPosted: October 6, 2007 2:01 AM 

Welcome SoilNodule, i hope to see some more of your posts, and realy hope you can post some images with some size scales.

Henry Author Profile Page

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PostPosted: October 6, 2007 5:09 AM 

Thanks for the reference, Mann. More people are admitting a possible biological implication for the Blueberries:

Processes of origin and duration of growth of Blueberries at Meridiani Planum. Max Coleman Jet Propulsion Laboratory, California Institute of Technology, 4800 Oak Grove Drive, MS 183-301, Pasadena, CA 91109-8099.

Seventh International Conference on Mars

However, this reaction is less plausible since sulfate reduction is kinetically inhibited and on Earth does not proceed at sedimentary temperatures unless catalyzed by microbial metabolic processes. If this mechanism were proven, it might imply the existence of microbial life there at that time.

old coot

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PostPosted: October 10, 2007 11:30 AM 

I tire of the continued insistence that the "blueberries" eroded from sedimentary rock. The coating of some type of filament which size indicates fragility denies that possibility. The filaments would be the first to go during such erosion.

Additionally, I have seen any number of rocks on the surface of Mars that have sharp edges, suggesting they have not been subjected to erosion to an appreciable degree.

Henry Author Profile Page

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PostPosted: October 11, 2007 9:17 AM 

We don't have any good evidence for microbiology at Meridiani.

This is a rather naked statement of your personal opinion, dalhousie, in light of these three recent papers from respected scientists at least implying that their opinions would differ from yours:

But, of course, this Forum is not the best format for a debate between scientists, which is usually conducted in the refereed journals.

Do you have any plans to make public your opinion beyond this Forum, for instance at a meeting or in a refereed journal?

extrasense Author Profile Page

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PostPosted: October 11, 2007 10:31 PM 

Yea, and those people have taken really deep breath before coming out, a few years long one.

e Razz s


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PostPosted: August 12, 2008 12:44 PM 

Well, it seems that Pheonix might have given us some missing pieces to the puzzle of the berries. OR not, but maybe.

One of the missing pieces was the Reason, or the Nucleating Points for the berry to form..

Also the berries were formed from an unusual Higher ph event, from other water events.

Perchlorates might be the answer here.

The microbes that eat perchlorates love and produce a higher ph.

Iron tends to coat the microbes, the nucleating points.

The breakdown of perchlorates, produce oxiding conditions, hence, Hematite.

The lower portions of Endurance, as the source, some say, of the bigger, better berries, and guess what There is More Chlorine here, the possible result or the perchlorate breakdown.

The The life and death of Perchlorate microbes.


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PostPosted: February 19, 2010 9:03 AM 

I have looked at hundreds of the blueberries and I am suspicious that there is a ongoing replication process producing them even from various strata. It could someday redefine our understanding of organic processes.
Am I say this is life on mars? No, at this point that would be a Copernicum blunder. But, I believe as man reaches deeper into this solar system and beyond he will find a staggering array of life in yet to be understood forms.


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PostPosted: February 26, 2010 6:48 PM 

sol 885 ( May 20, 2010 ) colorized MI closeup of berries and stems:

All the stemmed berries at Concepcion prompted me to revisit one of my favorite berry / stem MIs using the original data.

There are some remarks in the image comments directing you to interesting features.

I think I see tems with one end that attaches to the berry and the other end that attaches to the rock matrix.

An interesting question occurred to me when looking at these tiny berries with stems: Is there a relationship between the berry size and stem length?

Is there a possible geological explanation for such a relationship?

Concepcion crater would be a perfect place for studying a reasonable sample of stalked berries using the MI.

Come on rock guys, have your "aha" moment and study some rocks that may disprove the "wind tail" hypothesis.

Perhaps a biologist can comment on, say, the height of ( for example ) slime mold stems and the attached balls.

Dana Johnson

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PostPosted: February 28, 2010 6:03 PM 

It is interesting that in the early landing period of observation (2003-2004) there were the views of many radial shaped items, one each per spheroid, at an apparent single point of attachment, with non-attached seperate similar radial items in the soil, and now nearly none of the objects are seen in the images associated with the 'blueberry' spheroids.
I have made this observation in prior threads and have a very distant and tenuous Earth example image of a continuous self altering variation from the smaller pattern to a 'spheroid' appearing, but flat plane shaped equivalent crosscut 'stem' shape which connects our various 3D Mars examples to a single instance of Earth biology in the stem of Oak trees.
The growth pattern originates as a 'starfish' pattern in axial birdseye viewing of crosscut specimins, and as the plant stem adds layed cells(not visible at the viewed resolution, but clearly known as existent in truth), the cells die and apply a minimising 'rounding' of the outer stem shape as the bark expands, even developing a 'skin' effect of differentiated weathered rind equivalent.
The stems in the Mars berries are not yet a subject of microscopic closeup views, so any explanation will be unsatisfying to skeptics, whether the similarities are considered crystalline, or, biological.
An additional image of a younger Oak stem in growth is available at the adjacent position on the source index page, but the viewing is designed through a Flash or similar software through the thumbnail index, and prevents viewing from these static pages for that image. The site is great for optics, biology MI comparisons, and general reference information.
Worth a view as a thought extension when imagining the variety of biological patterns which may match some Mars items at all size scales.
As I have now found a large scale example of the multi-armed 'starfish' shape emplaced at the core of a polar Mars Spider, or Araneiform object, and, as the Spiders form with circular and possibly spherical cores in some percentage, the wide scale of pattern reduces the possibility of any co-incidence of overlying multiple patterns, and indicates the syndrome of formation is one of repitition and reproduced populations at scale variances of 1 to 10,00, or greater.

In regard to the earlier contributor who identified the Mars Spheroids as without small scale pattern, I would like to remind readers to enlarge the MI's, in TIF or PNG preferrred, and use contrast and brightness controls to find the actual mass of the spheroidal 'blueberries' to be very textured, and consisting of a mass of ovoid, circular, and stem-like patterns, of low contrast, and possibly not homogeneous in makeup and chemistry.
Others identified some Mars berries with a secondary near spherical core mass with a sharp differentiated outer wall at the core limits. We have all seen the berries with several appearances of outer rind surface, and in varied appearances of that surface.
Prior to sampling the berriess under microscopes and other instruments we will not solve the identification of them.

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