Insight lander - Page 4

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Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

Reply: 61



PostPosted: July 12, 2019 1:01 PM 

I find it a point of imagination that we have front foot pads in motion multiple times, with rear foot pads not jumping or bouncing. A lack of directional obstruction would not produce a bouncing side-stepping housing. The underside of the housing and it's shape is important now.
Which items or shapes could be exposed in the shadows is important as it is either material from the instruments, or raw material from below ground.
The missing mass allowing for the hole produced and the lack of apparent angular shattered rock fragments gives the impression of a great difference in the soil content at the hammer location. Under the lander is seen much angular debris and even large rocks. The hammer device has no 'drop- down' guide tube to start the friction around the hammered hole at the upper end and there is an apparent wear mark at a fixed height on the hammer device.
It appears the change of foot pad ground impression changed suddenly and completely in two altered positions.
Surely the team is looking at the shadowed items that appear metallic or basalt colored?


Sol 220,

https://mars.nasa.gov/insight-raw-images/surface/sol/0220/idc/D000M0220_616070333EDR_F0000_0912M_.PNG

Would they risk scooping this material with the arm to investigate the blue to silver colored material prior to simply trying to compress and fill the hole for added friction? I see a probable obstruction, either basalt or metal, possibly even lost parts in the hole, indicating serious lack of probable success burying the hammer.

Just tried to post this from a public computer and found the entry disappearing after a short wait. Second attempt.
Air pressure still creeping upward, wind stable around 32-36 mph.

Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

Reply: 62



PostPosted: July 17, 2019 10:15 PM 

Better sun angle, lesser view angle, still an exposure of a blue colored tip to the shape exposed in this scene. No enlargement here. From a cell phone, will adjust this later.
Current Sol view.

https://imageshack.us/i/poGVKS27j

Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

Reply: 63



PostPosted: July 28, 2019 11:17 AM 

A sol 235 view at an angle to view the side wall of the soil.

July 26, 2019.

The scoop is in a position near the hole.

Original images, credits NASA/JPL-Caltech

Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

Reply: 64



PostPosted: August 1, 2019 10:15 AM 

Sol 240, the scoop is positioned on the soil surface, with an appearance of some pressure from the arm possibly.

https://mars.nasa.gov/raw_images/612858/?site=insight

A closeup of the scoop on the surface, the soil showing the pressure of the arm causing some compression. Is this a test of surface integrity, or is it a plan to use simple pressure of the arm without filling the open hole with debris? Perhaps the plan is to index the position and study the strain on the vertical wall of the hole.

The 3X enlarged view is at dpi 1647, and a mouse click of the initial view gives the full 300% view.

Raw image page link for Sol 240, at 50 pages of images during the mission.

https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/multimedia/raw-images/?order=sol+desc%2Cdate_taken+desc&per_page=50&page=0&mission=insight

Image credits, originals; NASA/JPL-Caltech

Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

Reply: 65



PostPosted: August 1, 2019 12:02 PM 

Wait an hour and an answer becomes available, with an interesting smooth compressed surface of the scoop.
The closeup is at 3X again, dpi 1647, in xnview editor. A download of these images or a second mouse click shows the enlarged image.

The image was taken at July 31, 2019, recorded as sol 240, but not available here until 10 AM on Aug 1, 2019.
The first image was about 4pm Mars time, the additional closer view below was about 4:33 pm, Mars time.

Original images, NASA/JPL-Caltech

A view of the sunlit inner wall of the hole would be important.

Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

Reply: 66



PostPosted: August 1, 2019 1:18 PM 

A blended color balance actually reduces the distinct colors in the original, but clearly within the soil and rocks a complex set of colors exist. A water bath for many of these items, and Earth based sunlit conditions would make this soil as colorful as any Earth soil.

Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

Reply: 67



PostPosted: August 1, 2019 8:58 PM 

A late sol 241 image with the arm shadow shielding the hole, altered here, shows not much difference in the basic shapes from the sol 235 well lit image
It is interesting that the side wall where illuminated has patterned textural shapes of small size, either matching the metal rod during forced impacting or possibly a concretion appearance of arced layers in repeats side by side. The enlarged views show the pattern well on the far inner wall. These views are cropped views at 100% original size, but I have used a 'full size' designation at the image host. Hopefully this is sufficient to see the lack of side wall collapse on the side pressured by the arm scoop.
Angle differences and extreme alteration make details uncertain.
Has the hammer been activated as yet to test the situation integrity?

Originals, image credits; NASA/JPL-Caltech

Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

Reply: 68



PostPosted: August 2, 2019 11:23 AM 

From the June 28 to July 1 entries of Tilman Spohn in the DLR InSIGHT blog, progress has not been updated, giving the impression that the plan to 'fill' , then compress the soil/regolith surface still stands as a ongoing procedure.

" But the discussion so far centers around filling the pit and then proceeding with the pushes on the regolith that I have described in my previous post. "

https://www.dlr.de/blogs/en/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-5893/9577_read-1090/

Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

Reply: 69



PostPosted: August 3, 2019 5:16 PM 

Sol 243, Aug 3, 2019, and the arm has been lowered to the hole with the scoop on the far side of the arm cylinder here, not seen directly in the image.
This is a 280x200 pixel cropped view of the full image, and not much in the hole is visible in the two IDC camera images downloaded this day. There is no information in the dark shadow areas.

The full frame image view reference page as a PNG.

https://mars.nasa.gov/raw_images/613262/?site=insight

They seem to be studying the scoop/arm procedure, for safety and obvious practicality reasoning. A smaller rod several feet long as a solid object for impacting a test depth of a few feet probably is in the dreams each night for at least several members of the group who designed this self drilling device. It seems practical when working, but the nature of the subsurface is still controlling the future of the test.
How sturdy is the scoop with mixed materials?

Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

Reply: 70



PostPosted: August 5, 2019 11:58 AM 

Sol 244
The front edge of the scoop apparently has been used to mark and index a position along the near side of the hole, without other alterations, and the arm retracted for a view.
There is some detail in the shadow zone, but not much to see.

The full frame image page for this unaltered cropped view.

https://mars.nasa.gov/raw_images/613738/?site=insight

A test of the temperature probe response may have been taken. The weather report seems only partly responsive last week.

Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

Reply: 71



PostPosted: August 5, 2019 1:14 PM 

A more detailed look in the shadows, and the odd spherical shaped item appears in this view of Sol 244.
This is 3X highly altered view of the shadow cast in the depression caused by the hammer device. It may be this is too few tones for an accurate view, but the item cuts across the cylinder, giving the appearance of an 'olive with pit' shape.
The second image is at 3X with the two alteration inset views at 3X. Full size is available at the second mouse click or by download. Can an item like this be non-man-made or not?

John Radogno


Posts: 37

Reply: 72



PostPosted: August 5, 2019 4:16 PM 

I can't really see what you are looking at. What is the "olive with a pit" shape?

Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

Reply: 73



PostPosted: August 6, 2019 11:57 AM 

I am reading a entry count of 71 currently as I refresh this page today, Sol 245, Aug 6, 2019.
There is only one new image available as yet, and it is an ICC camera wide angle view of the arm set to image the hole from nearly directly above.
The local Mars 'Noon-time' single image shows a view with the ribbon shadow cutting across the hole, as seen in this altered 3X cropped view which was altered with an 'auto' color and contrast reset balance.
They may be taking a detailed look at the situation in the evacuated area of the hammer setting.

Full frame page view at normal size, unaltered. It appears the sunlight is shining nearly directly into the hole. The total image count is at 2,770 currently.

https://mars.nasa.gov/raw_images/613777/?site=insight

The weather page for the has not been updated since Sol 233, nearly two weeks past.

John Radogno


Posts: 37

Reply: 74



PostPosted: August 6, 2019 6:27 PM 

When I look at the image in #71, I see that there is a bit of shadow above the straight line indentations and a slight bit of shadow to the left of the circular indentations on the lower right of the image. This would mean the sun was slightly off of directly shining into the hole, coming in from the lower right and being consistent with the shadow in the hole. At the same time the sun is lighting up the left inside of the hole.

Also, I am not sure that the hole itself is perfectly vertical.

Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

Reply: 75



PostPosted: August 7, 2019 2:28 PM 

So pleased to hear from an Earthling finally. Thought I was out of range for a few weeks, John

They have a couple dozen new images for Sol 246, and one seems to have some detail in the shadow. Most of the new images are without shadow content. I brought the lowest tones up but with a increase in the color saturation this time to see if it was color information or simple pixel noise or extensions I was seeing.
The newer image on the left of the assembled set shows what appears to be the bottom of the hole without markings. Possibly it could be both sets of images are not accurate enough in the few dark tones seen.

These are at 3X, and the change of DPI can account for some differing pixel lengths in images. Any altered image becomes questionable.
The most significant problem is these images are all at vaied angles and distances.
The color information along the metal rod matches the lower color/tone line in the hole recess where the soil has a difering color. For the edge line of the metal rod to disappear, where the rounded shape occurs at the lowest end of the rod in the Sol 244 images, the explaination could be the color and tone information was missing, but that seems unlikely to me as the current Sol 246 image shows strong color and tone with the mettal line continuing to the bottom of the recess where seen.
I believe the angle is wrong to see the object and it is probably real.

Sol 246, 3X, DPI 1647.

Assembled set of enlargements, two days, marked.

The varied angle of incidence may be the problem, or I may have made too much alteration at some point.
Would that small an object cause the rod to be forced to a tilt?

John Radogno


Posts: 37

Reply: 76



PostPosted: August 7, 2019 3:52 PM 

My Photobucket is frozen so I can not show you how it works. The rod is supposed to be tilted. It goes in at an angle.

Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

Reply: 77



PostPosted: August 9, 2019 12:39 PM 

Well, the housing was vertical for initial insertion by hammering I believe, but I am sure they expected some change by local rock or variation in packing of soil/regolith objects encountered. At first I thought the view in shadow showed a single solid object on the far right side of the tube. Various views have shown what appeared an object of just a few measured tones and a single color, but todays Sol 247 image shows a few dark spots of just a few pixels each, separated by tone variations, possibly several small rocks. I was concerned there was an extension of a large single mass of rock/flow material like what we see at the surface below the lander base. It could trap and force the tube at a steep angle perhaps.
So few pixels and color fidelity involved it seems futile without a direct sunlit view of the far right side wall where the tube descended into the material.

The Sol 247 original image. The newest view here has few information content potentials and is at a greater distance from the hole. The timing is also not optimum for lighting. I see dark graduated 'objects' in the darkest portion, mostly angular pixel residuals.

1:45 PM local time, Sol 247

https://mars.nasa.gov/raw_images/614519/?site=insight

2X, dpi1647, very poor quality view.

Original image credits; NASA/JPL-Caltech

It appears they have not reactivated the hammer device as yet, and I haven't read of that as yet.
If this landscape is at all similar to the Gale/Curiosity location, we wouldn't know what the integrity of the subsurface would be. It makes me wonder what the subsurface radar would show if it were available.

Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

Reply: 78



PostPosted: August 10, 2019 10:06 AM 

Sol 250 August 10, 2019

If no side wall solid object has forced a serious tilt to the hammer, and if they don't 'see' the hammer striking a solid layer causing the tilt, they may find filling the hole a solution as they attempt to go deeper eventually. As you say, they predicted some tilt was normal, but the current large 'wallowed' hole seems to be in the shape of the rectangular bottom exit casing of the MOLE housing, so it may be the soil cannot provide a sufficient pressure in particular directions to allow penetration of the deeper soil. I would imagine the soil is denser upon increasing depth, but as we look at Gale crater materials we see varied layers, differing fractures in each spot, and layers which have no solid foundation of deeper layers with the bottom of the top layers altered on the bottom of the surface solid layer sections exposed.
Too much mystery as to what is active, the surface, or, the subsurface. Just my thinking again, and the surface rocks around InSIGHT seem to be broken unaltered sections of thick solid material.
I see what appears to be an area of extended flow for hundreds of miles with the linear 'waves' or troughs in the HiRISE images, and they selected a small 'crater' spot for landing.
This is a quote from the surface ops/ timeline page,

" the seismometer should be able to measure the speed of the vibrational waves in the soil generated by the hammering motion. It should be able to detect reflections of these waves as they bounce off any shallow buried layers, such as lava flows, unveiling the structure of the subsurface. "

https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/timeline/surface-operations/

They stated they had measured the effects of hammering, but a wallowing of the hole may make the problem confusing.
I believe the limit to tilt was about 45 degrees from other web pages of the several sites responsible for the program.

I imagine the greatest danger is from a forcing to horizontal from a solid item on the side wall. Some of the dust on the left side of the hole appeared slightly dark, possibly from the hammer throwing dust to the left below the instrument cable.

Also, as we had discussed the limits of hammer blows total, different pages mentioned varied numbers from 10,000 to 40,000 potential available actions. They are uncertain about how much effort leads to the breakdown point apparently.

The winds at the weather report have increased to 10 MPH average, to 40 MPH + for gusting or peak wind speed each day, as the weather report has been updated the past couple days.
No reports I have read about dust devils passing.
Has there been a 'cleaning event' as yet? The solar panels had considerable dust on them at a few months into the operations. Possibly the peak wind is capable of cleaning the panels if the adhesion of dust not 'tacky' or electrostatic in nature.
Waiting for more closeup views. The early views were of very good quality until this Sol 247 view, and they were in direct sunlit timing on some days.

Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

Reply: 79



PostPosted: August 11, 2019 3:26 PM 

I could have waited later on Aug 10 to see the additional 20+ images downloaded for Sol 250 and Sol 251.
There was an additional attempt to apply pressure from the side and top of the hole. It appears use of the scoop front edge was used at the spot nearest the side wall of the tube during which the view of the hammer tube was not available in multiple images taken.
Later images of Sol 250 show greater depth than the initial use of the front scoop edge on the margin of the hole on a previous day. Now there are two lines crossing the flattened scoop pattern.

The shadow recess shows not much change inside the hole. It appears the soil material can be compressed without resistance at the surface contact.
I remember the Phoenix scoop device worked well at a far higher latitude for deep movement of material.

https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/

The particular original image page for this cropped view,

https://mars.nasa.gov/raw_images/614648/?site=insight

Image credits, originals; NASA/JPL-Caltech

Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

Reply: 80



PostPosted: August 12, 2019 1:18 PM 

Images were added late in the day to the Sol 250 set, and one of Sol 251 shows the days work, with the hole mostly filled, with loose soil from the back and right side of the hole walls. The collapse of the material does not show large items, and appears to be successful as a simple application of the scoop leading lip on two positions.
They may plan to finish the fill work after inspection, or they may try the hammer with a partial fill. I am sure the top-down pressure would be more efficient with a filled hole, but the material is of the same consistency as the original without added pressure and the debris is even looser without some packing. Will they count on natural collapse or add machine compression?

This view is at 2X, DPI 1647

Original image credits;

NASA/JPL-Caltech

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