Organics Found on Ceres

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PostPosted: February 17, 2017 1:06 AM 

Los Angeles Times report:
[link]

Dana Johnson


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PostPosted: February 24, 2017 3:42 PM 

Size of this crater? A small central peak may be important.
The blue low concentration ring around the crater tells a single source. The smaller zones in red show a few sources from the slump of crater floor material at the far side and the near to camera side, both low in elevation and directionally similar. a slight exposure at the central peak smallest crater at the central peak 'pit' or crater? Does that indicate a single explosive source at the peak, or several movements of recent exposure younger than the crater?
Looks confusing to myself.
All three directional, so while the very small linear craters or pits are lower left to upper right directionally, the direction of the organics materials is almost perpendicular to the linear small pit strings. Perhaps that is related to the sourcing or the exposure as a below surface source of exposure? No wind, no angling other than eruption or impacting, no source but local, as a single site occurrence, or one impact source. No chemistry offered, yet I don't remember from news releases any directionality of the water/ice materials.

What have I missed or been mistaken about in the observation? Too much presumption or not enough?

I assume the impact was at the angle of the exposures, yet the slumping gave a high concentration only along the angle of the impact, and not the full ring of the crater, so the impactor would be the source, and not the host body?

The crater must be old, material therefore is stable at the surface?

john radogno


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PostPosted: February 24, 2017 4:52 PM 

I am going to suggest this crater was not formed by an impact like so many of the others. It may be a sinkhole caused by the boiling away of an ancient subsurface lake. The disribution of the red areas, as well as the crater wall streaks makes more sense as pre-existing before the sink. There are other craters with steep, sharp walls like this. We should find out if any organics were detected in these other places.

Dana Johnson


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PostPosted: February 25, 2017 2:39 PM 

Yes, more source points would help. I have not been watching the water ice locations, have not been watching for a Ceres direction of massive stress from outside influence, so the image is only a start. Jointing or a swarm impact, possibly only a few but massive. History of the belt is complex. The perpendicular angles are not just coincidence as with the vertical jointing on Mars at MSL a few months past where each segment alternated green then blue in pairs and layers. Compression could come from above or below if each site was issuing or altering materials by force.
I hoped we had geologists reading. Subsurface water is the suggestion by many, but the actual crater seems old. The small pit on the peak is recent apparently. The linear features match flow from all three high concentration spots and low concentration matches similarly the perpendicular angles. Too much for coincidence, so compression or eruption? More than one ice eruption? Is water ice even seen here? Organics without water ice?
Perhaps more images will help.
Looks to me like a dry slump at upper left center.

Dana Johnson


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PostPosted: February 25, 2017 5:54 PM 

Spent a half hour that should have been done months past, and while the amount of released public info is small, the researchers amount is large and growing for a broad distribution of organics, with many measurements, claimed.
So, as I persisted, the tectonics sourced organics might be possible yet unless more info released contradicts that, with the various linear features relatively perpendicular to the single imaged crater referred in the current articles, yet a geology map of the Ceres body would be neccessary to see a general pattern.
An interesting article is in the Sky and Telescope of April 2017, about CC craters, concentric craters, as small and simple craters on the margins of the Moons maria, explained as probably a subsurface source of semi-liquid or mobilized material which can arise from below in the fractures formed by the small impactors action, and during the activated mobile material as available during limited timing and conditions. I found it a nice addition to many other mysterious crater types, and while found on Earth's Moon, possibly a source for imagination about both Ceres organics found in the current topic image, and curiously, also this linked image I produced from the New Horizons Pluto encounter on the margin of Sputnik Planum. On Pluto we have a semi-frozen or fully frozen Nitrogen 'lake' upwelling or deposition source for uprising activated material, and the size of this Pluto crater is similar to the Moon CC's, about 5 miles possibly.

http://i.imgsafe.org/8941fbb.gif

This is Pluto, not Ceres, but is this an concentric crater within the definition of the magazine article?

No organics in this, just an interesting similar crater where science claims there are none.

john radogno


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PostPosted: February 25, 2017 9:26 PM 

Lots of water and organics on Pluto. Ultraviolet radiation breaks up methane and nitrogen trace gasses in the thin atmoshere. Organic chemicals then fall to the surface. Ceres does not have much gasses floating around it but it may be enough. On Pluto it is the source of the red coloring. It is pretty clear that the chemical organic precursers to life are common throughout the universe.

Dana Johnson


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PostPosted: February 27, 2017 6:32 PM 

The image needs a NASA link for a source, Occator crater close up of a bright mound. Ceres water, whereas the Pluto ringed mound at the center looks similar and is also the brightest spot in the formation, yet is presumed to be nitrogen, carbon monoxide, or another ice, I imagine.

What would be the actions giving the shaping, deposition or eruption? Channels radiating from the mound?

Dana Johnson


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PostPosted: February 27, 2017 7:07 PM 

Previous post failed to appear for an hour, so here is an additional post with similar info and an additional anigif view of the Pluto Sputnik Plenum 'ringed feature' I have been calling s 'crater mound'. Whatever this is, either a cryovolcanic active feature, or an inverted or elevated impact record, it is the only one I found on the ice of Sputnik Plenum.

Can the Occator crater bright mound be the same as this Pluto feature, a possible active upwelling source of eruption or impact elevated? How can the central portion be an ice for either and be elevated and also be the brightest spot in the scene?

Pluto

http://i.imgsafe.org/6a58986.gif

Ceres, Occator mound with radiating channels.

Are both active geology or tectonic depth responses to current conditions? So many targets for detailed chemistry 'out there'.

Thank you John for adding some focus for me.

Dana Johnson


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PostPosted: February 27, 2017 7:42 PM 

As the ice is seen as mobile on Pluto, with glacial characteristics, would Ceres have movement of ice? Ceres is a different ice type, and perhaps no steady source of heat for movement and change of state and volume. Water has been suggested as active under the nitrogen I believe. Could ice power mounds at Mars, Pluto, and Ceres ?

Pluto, again, showing nitrogen or other ice in movement, and one ringed feature, with a possible related second similar on the right of the one I marked.

http://i.imgsafe.org/704454b.

Why is water the near universal active geology component associated with organic chemistry on most mission targets? Perhaps we just aren't seeing the other active components and chemistry?

Dana Johnson


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PostPosted: February 27, 2017 10:02 PM 

[link]

Dana Johnson


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PostPosted: February 27, 2017 10:14 PM 

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/355/6326/719

https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/organic-compounds-found-on-dwarf-planet-ceres/2500419.article

Dana Johnson


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PostPosted: February 27, 2017 11:06 PM 

Ceres matching 'pit and cone' features, while Mars has reduced height similar features. Why?

John Radogno


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PostPosted: February 28, 2017 12:08 AM 

Thanks for the link. If there is subsurface water in the form of brines, I can think of 2 ways they can burst through any weak-surface fractures. Pressure from below, which might be possible on Pluto due to tidal forces with Charon or gravitational pressure from above, forcing the brine out through the weaker fractures (maybe on Ceres). Once the brine hits the surface, or fountains above it, if it is in sunlight the water might evapotate out leaving what amounts to a salt mound behind. Does this make any sense?

Dana Johnson


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PostPosted: February 28, 2017 12:38 PM 

Sounds like the early explaination I had read, but the very large structure seems to match the smaller on Ceres, and I see no flow as liquid so brines as an ice movement under pressure even on Pluto and Mars I would quess might be simple ice and gas.
The oddity of seeing the many associated small pits and mounds on Mars south polar area gives me an understanding the chemistry or electro-potential activity dominates there, and more.
The two examples on Ceres, in the reply number 11 image, seem to a power source for excavation below the surface. Much of the source points are coordinated in two latitude zones. Too much regularity for casual cause of exposure by routine fractures. Some regulation is underway by a global force(s). Not enough information yet.

John Radogno


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PostPosted: March 1, 2017 10:54 PM 

Just read an New Scientist article by Chelsea Whyte (no link, paper subscription). The tar like substances on Ceres can't be pinned down but their mineral-spectra fingerprints match kerite or asphaltite, would not have survived the heat of a meteorite impact and could not have come with the meteorite. The distribution pattern linking the organics on the bottom of the crater to those on the top, and especially in the crater slopes, would be an amazing coincidence that I don't think happened. It still makes more sense to me that a sinkhole developed after the organics established themselves in the surface. Yes, a sinkhole on one side of Ceres and ice volcano on the other. The diversity of activity on the dwarf planet may have contributed to the chemical interactions resulting in these organic materials.

Dana Johnson


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PostPosted: March 8, 2017 6:42 PM 

With organics and active chemistry and geology on most of the solar system bodies, I would expect many new discoveries in each mission this century. Designing rovers for very cold temperatures and safe landing without atmosphere was the reasoning behind the airbag technique of MER.
Would the chemistry of Ceres damage a rover? Would the heater cause liquifaction?

John Radogno


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PostPosted: March 9, 2017 7:40 PM 

Ceres is much more like a planet than an steroid. Lots of different terrain and local environments. The bright spot in Occator crater, made up of carbonate salts is thought to be only 4 million years old, in a 34 million year old crater. Relatively recent enough to think that geologic processes may still be happening.
www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/dawn-identifies-age-of-ceres-brightest-area#.WMC9mwGIkeU.mailto

Here is a view of Haulani Crater, 21 miles in diameter:

Lots of interesting stuff.

John Radogno


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PostPosted: March 9, 2017 7:41 PM 

Here is Occater:

Dana Johnson


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PostPosted: March 10, 2017 10:56 AM 

The possibilities to colonize Mars exist. This video shows potatos growing in Mars conditions. Mars conditions may exist inside Ceres?

https://m.facebook.com/sharer.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fshar.es%2F1UjQ4s&t=Potatoes+Growing+In+Mars-Like+Conditions+-+Time-Lapse+Video

Eruptions exist near Phoenix lander of recent timing also. Thousands of years past, not even millions, probably. Active solar system.

Dana Johnson


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PostPosted: March 10, 2017 10:57 AM 

https://m.facebook.com/sharer.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fshar.es%2F1UjQ4s&t=Potatoes+Growing+In+Mars-Like+Conditions+-+Time-Lapse+Video




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