Origin of Life on Mars? - Page 8

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mario


Posts: xxx

Reply: 141



PostPosted: June 17, 2017 6:32 AM 

Very weird conversation.

Lin Liangtai


Posts: xxx

Reply: 142



PostPosted: June 17, 2017 7:11 AM 

Re reply 121, the artificial objects in reply 120 are mudstone, not sandstone, according to NASA. The photos in reply 121 show sandstones, not what NASA said.

John Radogno


Posts: xxx

Reply: 143



PostPosted: June 17, 2017 11:31 AM 

Lin,
I believe what NASA says is that they have found mudstone cross bedded with sandstone in this area.
BTW, your links in post #138 are some of the best examples of fake news Wretch Fossil has ever posted. We have absolute proof that those basalt columns were not made by ancient people!

Lin Liangtai


Posts: xxx

Reply: 144



PostPosted: June 17, 2017 11:36 AM 

Mudstone cannot form the layers shown in reply 120 or the layers shown in the third/fourth links below.
1. This link shows Stimson formation and Murray Formation in Gale Crater:
https://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/images/2016/curiosity-rovers-martian-mission-exaggerated-cross-section&s=2
2. This link shows sandstone in Stimson formation and mudstone in Murray Formation:
http://meetingorganizer.copernicus.org/EGU2017/EGU2017-10808.pdf
3. This link shows many-layered mudstone in Murray formation:
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=8309&view=findpost&p=236244
4. This link describes the layered stone:
https://www.facebook.com/marscuriosityimages/photos/a.584691531546000.149854.584605114887975/1777767382238403/?type=3&theater
The third and fourth links show artificial rocks, not mudstones.

Lin Liangtai


Posts: xxx

Reply: 145



PostPosted: June 17, 2017 11:51 AM 

Re reply 143, where is the " absolute proof that those basalt columns were not made by ancient people!"

John Radogno


Posts: xxx

Reply: 146



PostPosted: June 17, 2017 12:09 PM 

Dana,
Re: 133 The default is always for nature. Looking and waiting for the scientific solution has proven to be enormously successful. We see strange stuff on Earth in our every day life and don't think much of because of our familiarity. Strange corruptions in tree bark, strange spots on rocks, unusual shapes in beach rocks, but we automatically assume these are natural, and in fact they are. When it comes to cross bedding on Mars, what would be strange is if there wasn't any.

Re: 140 You are absolutely right. Although we do not have proof of It, yet, he scientific community has every reason to believe that the universe is the same everywhere because everywhere they have looked we find the same molecules, evidence of carbon, and lots of water (hydrogen signature).
Also, even on Earth, we have several non-human species that are sentient (whales, dolphins, elephants) it just happens that humans have the dexterity needed to make complex tools.

As far as finding ETs, there are a lot of issues that make it difficult. I like Carl Sagan's idea that many advanced societies do not survive their early industrial and nuclear age. We may turn out to be in that category if we don't get our act together soon!
You mention timing and I agree that is a big factor. I don't really think we have had any visits by ETs ever, but I do consider what it would be like for any ETs that made the journey. If there were as many as 10,000 visits randomly over the 4 billion year history of this planet the odds of them finding intelligent life here would be about 0.0000025.

ETs of course would have to have limbs for tool making, but there is no reason why they would HAVE to look anything at all like humans.

Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

Reply: 147



PostPosted: June 17, 2017 3:49 PM 

Yes, however, we have the similar patterns and shapes for tetrapods throughout time, with humans the only known high end result proven yet.

John Radogno


Posts: xxx

Reply: 148



PostPosted: June 18, 2017 10:58 AM 


Dana,
I agree, tetrapods are likely. I am just saying that our environment is unique, with the moon, and place tectonics and such. There may not be another planet exactly the same. Habitable planets have been found around red dwarfs for example. The length of days and years may be much different also. So in addition to human like shapes, there may also be wildly different looking alien bodies.

John Radogno


Posts: xxx

Reply: 149



PostPosted: June 18, 2017 11:12 AM 

Lin,
The basalt columns formation you reference is millions of years old and is only one of many such structures found in various places around the globe, some near by one, such as Giants Causeway in Northern Ireland is dated as 60 million years old. This is way before people existed. The hominid lineage split from that of primates around 6 million years ago but did not evolve large brains until Homo Hablis, around two million years ago.

Lin Liangtai


Posts: xxx

Reply: 150



PostPosted: June 19, 2017 3:48 AM 

Re reply 138, there were human beings 300 million years ago. See
[link]
[link]

John Radogno


Posts: xxx

Reply: 151



PostPosted: June 19, 2017 4:10 PM 

Lin,
Sorry but you links referring to Conrad's fossils do not have any scientific peer review on the actual objects, plus no carbon dating and they are found in a trash heap. The link to yourself, is, well, a link to yourself.

Re: 138 - You are using fake news to support other fake news in a circle of fantasy. You are saying it is proof that people lived millions of years ago because only people can make artificial rocks, but there is not proof of artificial rocks. Both of these ideas are proven to be false. It is like telling your teacher you don't have your home work because the dog ate it and the proof the dog ate it is that you don't have your homework. You couldn't get your story straight about one scientist, Dr. Grotzinger, and now you are trying to say you know more about science than the several generations of thousands and thousands of scientists who have studied the fossils, geology, geologic dating techniques, and continues to study these things. If you are right, they are all wrong... and carbon dating is a hoax?

Re: 138, first point, the basalt columns. The fossil record absolutely proves that people did not exist when these structures were formed. You would have to take Dr. Conrad's bones and prove that from there evolution went backwards several hundred million years to Australopithecus. Good luck with that.

But, even with out the fossil record, there is the geologic record. These basalt column structures are found in many places around the globe and most of them are dated millions to tens of millions of years old up to 60 million years. Iceland for example, where your example is from, did not even exist until 60 million years ago when the volcanic up-welling first broke above water creating the island. But because these features are found on several different continents it would have required a global civilization, not just an island like Atlantis, but a global civilization, just after the demise of the dinosaurs, to build these things around the world, but there is no record of such a civilization??? You have to stop and think about how many levels of crazy this is. Today we have an advanced global civilization and even today we would not be able to artificially manufacture these things. Today we are living in what some are calling the anthropocene that will leave a permanent record proving we existed. There is no record of any global civilizations in any epoch before the current one.

The geology of these basalt columns is very well understood by the scientific community. As huge deposits of liquid basalt cools, it contracts. Being too big to contract in one piece, numerous contraction points start developing. The purer the material, the more evenly spaced and the more likely it will come out in a hexagonal pattern. This is not a mystery of science. Artificially making these structures under the volcanoes is just not plausible, there is no way to do it, and the real science for how it happens is real and cannot be undone. If you have any credibility you will give up the point
Re: 138, second point. You fail to provide any evidence for artificial rocks in Gale Crater. Yes there are basalt rocks found in an area that was once under water. Wretch Fossil did not discover this. The mission scientists knew about this first. We also find a stream bed in an area that was previously under water. Stream beds cannot form under water (you called it a sidewalk). The basalt rocks and the stream bed are evidence of other water and detritus flows into the crater after the lake period ended. Gale Crater is an amazingly complex place with a very complex history, much of it still undiscovered. The mission team is considering a larger flow of short duration, bringing in the basalt rocks, with short term water contact (I also wonder if some came down from the parts of Mt. Sharp that may have never been under water). They are looking at it not just as an answer to the immediate question, but also how it fits in with the bigger questions of climate change in Mars. There is evidence that while the planet was going through over all cooling, some areas had short term warming. New discoveries are being made continually. See the hot-rocks not-warm atmosphere link in reply 17 of the Water On Mars thread, which is about Lyot Crater, but may further add to the complexity of understanding what we are finding in Gale.
Calling things on Mars artificial when the science is still in progress is not a very rational thing to do. You would think by now Wretch Fossil would know better.

Lin Liangtai


Posts: xxx

Reply: 152



PostPosted: June 20, 2017 3:19 AM 

Re reply 138, this photo falsifies once and for all the theory that basalt cracked to form the columns:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/fossil_lin/16775178946/in/album-72157651656056515/

John Radogno


Posts: xxx

Reply: 153



PostPosted: June 20, 2017 9:00 AM 

Lin,
Ha, not even close! This is perfectly natural. You are only seeing it the way you want to see it, There are many, many many reasons why rock overhangs are found in nature.
The columns themselves are made up of mini-columns in side only an inch or two in diameter, (hard to reproduce naturally) all of this meets at right angles with the volcanic layering. The cooling starts at the bottom and works in segments. The volcanic horizontal layering is typically a few inches to 3 or 4 feet in length and the summer of each section is commonly concave or depressed as to form a saucer shaped hollow, of which the next section above fits into. These horizontal breaks can come in individual columns but also in across several near by columns. Giants Causeway is considered one of the best examples of this kind of ball and socketing. The columns world wide come in all sizes but the sweet spot for the most highly geometric hexagonal shape is around 15 inches. In the Snake River the columns rest on a layer of soft volcanic ash. In some places that ash is removed from underneath the columns by the snake river.
I am sorry, but you have no idea how well studied these things are and how advanced the science is on them.

Now, with Conrad's bones, this is most likely to be a murder mystery. If the bones were found hanging out of a wall of coal in an under ground tunnel, that would be one thing, and it probably would not have been missed by the miners as back in the day, mining coal was close and personal. A waste dump is something else. Burying a body under slag is a good way to get rid of it. The slag waste that typically gets dumped contains coal gravel, slag, coal dust and ash. Most of this stuff is highly cementive, and is used in the making of concrete. It is very likely that after decomposition of the body's flesh, the pockets were filled in with dust, coal gravel and ash and cemented around the bones. So the mystery is who was the Mob Boss that ordered the hit?

Lin Liangtai


Posts: xxx

Reply: 154



PostPosted: June 20, 2017 11:17 AM 

Re reply 153,
1. Strip mining started less than 300 years ago at the site where the leg bone fossil was discovered. It takes more than 300 years for a bone to become a coalified fossil.
2. Why do some basalt columns have horizontal cracks while others do not? Why do the horizontal cracks, vertical cracks and "balls and sockets" occur with such regularity while numerous basalt rocks have no such cracks?
3. In https://www.flickr.com/photos/fossil_lin/16775178946/in/album-72157651656056515/
why are the basalt columns still in the air if they have numerous cracks in them?

Joe Smith


Posts: 86

Reply: 155



PostPosted: June 20, 2017 9:27 PM 

Off Topic but a couple of things about Mars not discussed that much.
1. Light on Mars will be less. Sunlight may be tinted but there will be less of it.
2. Because of its size the horizon will be closer and the curvature of the planet will be much more pronounced, otoh, objects in the distance will be closer, horizon will change shape faster.
3.Sound will travel further and faster. Night time should produce sounds of rocks actually contracting and expanding. Slides.
Wind moving thru canyons.
4.Changing environment. Mars is not frozen in time. Daily.
5.Tecknology advances: See spaceX. See Co2 turned to oxygen. Carbon fiber advancements
6.Moree popularity.

Joe Smith


Posts: 86

Reply: 156



PostPosted: June 20, 2017 9:29 PM 

Off Topic but a couple of things about Mars not discussed that much.
1. Light on Mars will be less. Sunlight may be tinted but there will be less of it.
2. Because of its size the horizon will be closer and the curvature of the planet will be much more pronounced, otoh, objects in the distance will be closer, horizon will change shape faster.
3.Sound will travel further and faster. Night time should produce sounds of rocks actually contracting and expanding. Slides.
Wind moving thru canyons.
4.Changing environment. Mars is not frozen in time. Daily.
5.Tecknology advances: See spaceX. See Co2 turned to oxygen. Carbon fiber advancements
6.More popularity. Should come up in regular conversation. Another Planet. Hello Young People,,, finally we have something to leave to you.

John Radogno


Posts: xxx

Reply: 157



PostPosted: June 21, 2017 10:47 AM 

Lin, Re: Your questions per #154
1. The bones may not really be fossilized. They were found imbedded in material that is made up of a lot of coal but it is common in these waste dumps to find relatively contemporary items that have been buried for years (a decade or two) that have become completely encrusted in what looks like coal. The dirt, garbage , coal gravel, slag, fly ash, exposed to moisture, freeze and thaw, can easily compress and concrete in a very short time. Some of the coal encrusted metal machinery found in these dumps could not have been missed if they were originally found in the actual coal veins. Every thing in these dumps is contaminated. I am not going to argue about Dr. Conrad, but there are good reasons why established science does not except his work and it is not a conspiracy.

2. Cracks is the wrong word for these lines, as it is not about breaking up due to stress. It is more about the basalt magma cooling into distinct packets. All basalt columns have these horizontal lines, actually perpendicular lines because the columns can bend and curve, but these lies stay the same.
The columns can only form where there is a huge, and very deep contained mass of liquid basalt, and only under certain conditions concerning how the heat is trapped, with a great deal of pressure and a great deal of uniformity. Often they are found underneath very large rock formations of non-column basalt. There is a great deal of information about this that you can look up. Here is the general process:


The horizontal lines are actually not quite as regular as depicted.

Here is some information about the internal make-up of the columns:

a., b., c., As the basalt contracts, it cause a fluid dynamic to develop. The vertical lines have distinct mineral differences and crosses several horizontal separation lines (all happening at once). These internal structures cannot be artificially made, it requires a volcano for it to happen.
f. A horizontal view. These circular internal structures can still come in a variety of ways, but all of the columns fave them,

So you see, these columns cannot have been carved from basalt rock, and they cannot have been molded.

In many placed these columns are stacked deep under ground. what you see on the surface in exposed areas is not an facade. The idea of ancient people excavating huge areas, while supporting the heavy rock above, then refilling these areas with basalt columns that will never be seen is crazy enough, but artificially making these columns is impossible. So in the end, we have established science for how this happens, and there is no scientific way for them to be artificially made.
3. As I said, cracks is the wrong term of these lines, but when they do break off it is usually at these lines. Erosion is still ongoing and eventually more pieces will fall.

Real scientists work with each other, even when they have different ideas. Most of science is abut experiments to disprove something. You never hear of somebody trying to prove relativity. Then they except each other's findings and move on together. I am hoping you can do the same, accept that these columns are natural and say so in Wretch Fossil. If Wretch Fossil ever wants to be taken seriously they have to admit they were wrong when new information proves it. That is what every other respectable scientists does. It enhances one's credibility.

Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

Reply: 158



PostPosted: June 30, 2017 6:19 PM 

Interesting that with so much expected to be similar on Mars and Earth under similar stresses or conditions, I passed a email news item about NASA following and assessing Oklahoma earthquake activity from Sept. 3, 2016, received just a week past, June 29, 2017.
The links are what I accessed from the new release, and while the indication of Oklahoma's strongest earthquake being assessed as 'man-made', the occurrence was right at a loopback on a river, adjacent to a lake, both seen in grey color on the map.
We must assume that in the distant past Mars should have had similar 'marsquakes' in similar circumstances, possibly routinely, when water was permeating the landscape and surface. Does anyone expect a differing result on Mars during a wetter or more ice prone period?
https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=6886

http://www.newson6.com/story/33018226/usgs-pawnee-earthquake-strongest-ever-in-oklahoma

The presence of earthquakes along rivers with sharp changes of direction at 90 degrees or more was watched by myself as several per week occur in groups during weeks in recent years. The influence caused the only medium quakes seen across the U.S. during those weeks.
Would we see these activities, as the Oklahoma quake was below the surface and did not break the current surface, but was several to ten miles deep? I assume it would cause some of the observable conditions we are viewing after exhumation of layers in the rovers path, yet would be see these distinct from other movements and dry faulting? Is the veining a product of such influences?
Just added this as the news link was about the MRO satellite view of the rover in a recent position, and it led to the earthquake research story.
A bit of humor for the man-made versus natural argument which is basically unproven from both perspectives, but is an open possibility as yet.

JPL news email.

Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

Reply: 159



PostPosted: July 1, 2017 3:17 PM 

Another find leading back to varied timing of African hominids, indicating fire and tools in common use at 300,000 years past, no limit to prior examples possible.
http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/06/07/531804528/315-000-year-old-fossils-from-morocco-could-be-earliest-recorded-homo-sapiens
Science knowledge very different than science content. Bought two marble 'spheres' today. Can't prove whether 'artificial' or 'natural' marble.

John Radogno


Posts: 37

Reply: 160



PostPosted: July 2, 2017 1:48 AM 

Homo erectus used fire 600,000 years ago, possibly even earlier.

On Earth science is consistently getting better and better at sorting natural from man made things. Many things have already been proven!

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