Origin of Life on Mars? - Page 2

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John Radogno


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PostPosted: March 15, 2017 2:45 PM 

Mazebo,
I tried to cover all the bases with the examples I gave. I thought the upside down flying saucer image covered the crater edge issue. The reality is we are looking at a very bad picture that is reduced to the effects of individual pixels and as such is prone to illusion. That being said, look closely at the right side of what you call the center feature. There are 8 pixels lined up just outside the circumference of the smaller center feature. They are consistent with the crater curvature, not the smaller center feature. The crater edge gets fuzzy on the lower and upper right because the pixel shots cannot show detail of the area covered, only the dominant color shade. If you look carefully at the pixels, the center feature does not break the crater edge.

Other things to consider:
Direction of the sun and the terrain containing all the white color. Inside the crater the brighter area is in the top left. If this was a tower the shadow would be on the lower right but it is not. The darkest area outside the crater is on the bottom and even that area has some brighter spots. There is no CLEAR evidence of a tower shadow at all.
This image was taken from a northern area so it is possible the white colors are snow and ice. I am thinking the sunlight comes from the right and the area outside of the crater is a slope that gently rises toward the crater, lit up by sunlight. When I look at some of the uneven details below the crater the dark pixels appear to line up to the left of the lighter pixels indicating shadow on the left. The shot appears to have been taken from directly above and the crater is slightly off enter to the left. On the left edge would be capstone that overhangs slide material (plenty of rover shots of craters and butts) which gives us the dark pixels of the ring. When you look at the individual pixels, especially on the top area of the crater ring, you can see that the dark pixels do not actually ring the whole crater and that dark ring is only an illusion due to the poor quality of the picture.

Basically everything we see is consistent with an impact crater. There are probably better pictures out there with all the orbiters so we can search for another image, but if it is truly just another crater, nobody would flag it.

Dana Johnson


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PostPosted: March 16, 2017 9:42 PM 

I'll look at what you are describing, but this is such a small sized item, that the controlling factor would have been the anti-aliasing and enlargement processes. I have found this among the most odd and inexplicable shapes of the MRO returns, and as I am still finding odd editing malware attacks against these tablets, after losing dozens of computer items to similar but distinctly untraceable malware effects my confidence in human transfer and visualizing is always questioned by myself. I'll have to use a non-JPG image storage process. Tiff is the only one allowed in many GIS and JP2 type source images.
I believe you cannot explain the round shadow cast on the cylindrical tower shape, and the consistent thinness to the shadow. This as with other images has been geometrically reworked for severe angle of incidence and timing of the shots, and there are many HIRISE images that show adjoined patched terrain not quite matching and not realistic. I watch for those lines and am amazed the images hold as apparent overhead shots at times. Having the actual figures and numbers is important. This was placed on the Image Shack account by timing close to the taking date, which will help in recovering the ESP numbers.
At only tens of feet in diameter, the search on any image would be exhausting. Also the very dark, but not as dark, 'top' circle, is lighter than the rim shadow.
I have found many examples of arising 'pipe' shapes in HIRISE scales this size and smaller, and we have found them in the MER imaging close up. A volcanic pipe core or liquid based inverted feature was the presumption I made, but without shadow on the near side of the lighted aspects, and with extreme brightness on the rim and the near shadowed side, lower right, and upper right, it seemed much like a semi-reflective cone. No other feature in this IR image had similar lighting on the inner crater bowl or erect lighted side. Have you seen my images of similar sized tubular cones in the gypsum dune areas at the circumpolar region from a few years past? They are seen only in one color band, are casting shadows and look 3D and are complex and yet limited to only singular examples in otherwise quite normal images for the Mars gypsum between dark dunes. Again similar sizes but very unique color reelection spectrum.
Often there are features which are unresolved in IRB as the blue arrives as a wholly different image between the three. Near IR, Red, and blue-green.

While I give this some additional thought, this link from Mars meteorite testing and Earth simulation of minerals shows our lack of basic understanding about Mars sourced, altered materials.

[link]

Thanks for the interest, as many of the readers don't comment on the unusual and unknown aspects of possible unique finds.
Now that we are reviewing this, I am certain I spent time checking the IRB image and it did not cover this area of the IR full frame.

NASA could answer this mystery with their better equipment and software.

Dana Johnson


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Reply: 23



PostPosted: March 19, 2017 11:40 AM 

You have probably seen the newest release from HiRISE of the southern latitude dunes in craters where non-polar 'spiders' are being found?
Looking at the RGB JP2 of ESP_049288_1150
either pixels 2305.5 , 14184.1 , or, 2305 , 25815 , there is a colorful example of a very small and very circular source distinct from the irregular altered surrounding dark blue are, with sinuous meandering releases draining away from the point source. It is one of the best examples where the source is right at the surface apparently, many other variations around where less geometric sources show similar drainage away from singular source spots.
I have spend more time studying these several timed images of the area. The circular source circle is of similar size to the 'cone-cylinder' shape I presented as a possible erupting source also near 'spiders' in the prior entries here. The source in this southern high latitude is appearing raised slightly as a circle, within a depression of altered material which may be a source of liquid or chemistry which is active and erosive, and seasonal.
I suggest you download the HiView software or a GIS such as Global Mapper or Geomatica Freeview if you can, as the details and shaping is rather inescapable as a distinct process of a unique type across Mars, and possibly other planetary bodies.
The possibility that this is a liquid or active geological-biological material is repeated in examples in the thousands.
The cylindrical sources with erosive distribution and IR dark center structures with diffused altered domains is impressive.
Most all agree the temp.s are too low for Earth type life, yet the presence of seasonal point sources for geology activity or liquids in heavy CO2 concentration zones looks like a process that is operating causing gully formations and colored seasonal changes in cold landscapes.
I see this as similar to the erect cone 'smokestack' appearance shape of the prior posts.

http://www.uahirise.org/ESP_049288_1150

Dana Johnson


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Reply: 24



PostPosted: March 19, 2017 12:09 PM 

You have probably seen the newest release from HiRISE of the southern latitude dunes in craters where non-polar 'spiders' are being found?
Looking at the RGB JP2 of ESP_049288_1150
either pixels 2305.5 , 14184.1 , or, 2305 , 25815 , there is a colorful example of a very small and very circular source distinct from the irregular altered surrounding dark blue area, with sinuous meandering releases draining away from the point source. It is one of the best examples where the source is right at the surface apparently, many other variations around where less geometric sources show similar drainage away from singular source spots.
I have to spend more time studying these several timed images of the area. The circular source object is of similar size to the 'cone-cylinder' shape I presented as a possible erupting source also near 'spiders' in the prior entries here. The source in this southern high latitude is appearing raised slightly as a circle, within a depression of altered material which may be a source of liquid or chemistry which is active and erosive, and seasonal.
I suggest you download the HiView software or a GIS such as Global Mapper or Geomatica Freeview if you can, as the details and shaping is rather inescapable as a distinct process of a unique type across Mars, and possibly across other planetary bodies.
The possibility that this is a liquid or active geological-biological material is repeated in examples in the thousands.
The cylindrical sources with erosive distribution and IR dark center structures with diffused altered domains is impressive.
Most all agree the temp.s are too low for Earth type life, yet the presence of seasonal point sources for geology activity or liquids in heavy CO2 concentration zones looks like a process that is operating causing gully formations and colored seasonal changes in cold landscapes.
I see this as similar to the erect cone 'smokestack' appearance shape of the prior posts. The differences however are the eroded or collapse channels versus the raised braided sinuous debris 'eject', and the extensive height of the 'smoke-stack' cone shape versus the shallow cylindrical 'plate' shape. Both examples are adjacent to 'spiders' in high latitudes.

http://www.uahirise.org/ESP_049288_1150

John Radogno


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PostPosted: March 19, 2017 2:37 PM 

Test

John Radogno


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PostPosted: March 19, 2017 2:53 PM 

Dana, I will take a look at the HiRISE. There are a lot of unexplained things we see on Mars that are unique to Mars. The last crater I included in #19 has a large ice field in it but on the upper left of the ice mound there is a mysterious dark pile of unknown material. I could imagine that as the Ice melts it might temporarily leave a dark "wet" spot behind but I can't imagine what the dark pile is. The picture right above that has a large shadow area on the left of the crater that is caused by a high ridge on the crater wall. So there are a lot of possibilities for why things appear the way they do.
Thanks for the link in #22. The second article on past mega floods was interesting, plus it included an ESA Mar's Express shot. I used to spend hours going through ESA pictures and forgot how useful they can be.

Dana Johnson


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PostPosted: March 27, 2017 1:59 PM 

https://www.tcd.ie/news_events/articles/researchers-pinpoint-watery-past-on-mars/7607

This research reaching a large professional audience seems to be accepted as evidence of liquid conditions on Mars in the equatorial region, despite most all claiming it was impossible just before the release of the educated researcher. The concept of growth of mineral deposits is disputed here on the blog by the majority who believe the findings of positive relief features due to active geological formations being impossible without water is a preconditioned presumption. We see the evidence on the research images of dune 'ridges' arising from the surface. They are 'arcuate striations' in the researchers terms. I have found this a routine active feature in the circumpolar north latitudes of Mars, yet not once was there a comment observing my presentations as valid or recognized. It takes a title. It takes cash and friends to present new information in the news and on a blog as this one where the learned are assembled.
If as we see from many research releases the presence of salty bribes or any other active mineralogy is underway on Mars it will be found by those with both a title and a position of management of the news.
This is a wonderful finding this week.
Life on Mars in the dunes or mineral elevated structures from point sources, such as the cylindrical tubular structures I have presented in the past, found at the edges of the dark dunes where gypsum is exposed, coupled with this claim of recent liquid altering dunes, should allow an understanding that the possibility exists for both positive relief features such as cones, both mineral and organic sourced, or inverted structures similarly shaped.
If you can look at the original image, with the geometric walls, versus the shading of the 'crater' or 'cone', there is absolutely no commensurate shading match by expected pattern of the interior feature unless there is an elevated central shape. How would a thin shadow be cast at the rim only?
A look at the full frame shows a distinct shadow to the lower right across all features. The dark top which you suggest is an off centered pit would be lit or shadowed matching sun from another direction or angle.
In the example I presented of a HIRISE spider elevated dark mound, with extended downslope meander shaped depression channels there is both a positive feature with an interior 'pit', darkest, and additionally, if you study the entire color image from frame edge to edge, there is a varied appearance of shading and light direction due to unresolved slopes and local terrain large features. Some spider domains are on dune mounds, ground layer mounds, yet others are along the margins of layer exposures where we see the change of layer as a linear pattern. Finding the original in my example is a job for a group like Zooniverse with many eyes searching, but I'll find it eventually.
Meanwhile the 'finding' of 'recent' liquid in dunes is a topic I suggested many times as a reason for the gypsum and other light toned ground features matching and being apparently altered in the far north and even south latitudes. The results are inverted shapes, erosion, and other linear patterns. In the small crater example the crater rim has an exaggerated rim for a small crater, and a thin shadow line internally, the geometry moderated by the internal shape whether elevated or even 'flat'. The only shape moderating a risen ridge shadow would be a elevated object.
Try a series of physical models with a camera, please, or I will.
Does this research release seem reasonable in the equatorial region of Mars without findings of salt mineral imaging in the selected patterns?
I have presented in the past research showing most water in Earth deserts is found in dunes.

John Radogno


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PostPosted: March 28, 2017 11:54 AM 

Dana,
I have been looking at the HiRISE and I cannot find the cones you are speaking of. Lots of dunes, and craters. The elevation colored view is really amazing as well as the cross-eye 3D feature. The spider trails have long been considered to be associated with ice melt and do change as the season progresses. I remember back when these were first spotted and a lot of people were insisting that it was proof of trees growing on Mars because from overhead they looked like the branches of a winter tree devoid of leaves because there was a central point that the branches appeared to come from. We all know better now.

Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

Reply: 29



PostPosted: March 29, 2017 8:05 PM 

I'll look at the recent spider images, been busy with health and similar distractions here. The HiRISE timing for the 'cone' was probably 2010-2012. The geometric 'crater' is fairly certainly not an impact event. The basic features do not resemble the energy nor displacement, and the rim is too regular and rhythmic. Often in 'spider terrain' the 'soil' is very obviously a patterned ground with some obvious large scale crystalline repetitious clues. It is interesting that eruption cones and other unexplained cone-mound features exist in such cold surface areas. There is slight indication of the braided positive material 'wrapping' the rim at the upper to right side, where the view is blocked by the possible cone. As I've mentioned in other topics some 'soils' have even regular 'step-offset' repeats between the spider sources.
I presented the erupted cone as it indicated a possible heat, liquid, active geology, that would possibly sustain life, and to show that subsurface activity is underway in near polar areas where we can't yet land a rover or fixed laboratory.
To find the various news releases of 'CO2 ice' vaporized as a gas, then 'carving' a series of channels in permafrost soils and rock, is a caricature of science, and shows the lack of civility we receive as non-titled observers in these casual presentations.
In the 'dunes active geology' fossil striations I presented which is accepted as science, the explanation is that salts are high in concentrations along the layers of the dunes, giving alteration capable of positive relief features. The high salts, are available clearly along the layer margins, yet I have many times discussed the spiders as active along the margins of layers in the near polar regions. The audience on this blog tells me I cannot assume the spiders are active because of crystalline minerals, salts, liquids, and other than sublimation simple CO2 ice.
Clearly the seasonal attributes are active and multi-chemical and crystalline formations, not CO2 only.
It will require a 'educated person' to present the information.

Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

Reply: 30



PostPosted: March 29, 2017 8:54 PM 

I'll look at the recent spider images, been busy with health and similar distractions here. The HiRISE timing for the 'cone' was probably 2010-2012. The geometric 'crater' is fairly certainly not an impact event. The basic features do not resemble the energy nor displacement, and the rim is too regular and rhythmic. Often in 'spider terrain' the 'soil' is very obviously a patterned ground with some obvious large scale crystalline repetitious clues. It is interesting that eruption cones and other unexplained cone-mound features exist in such cold surface areas. There is slight indication of the braided positive material 'wrapping' the rim at the upper to right side, where the view is blocked by the possible cone. As I've mentioned in other topics some 'soils' have even regular 'step-offset' repeats between the spider sources.
I presented the erupted cone as it indicated a possible heat, liquid, active geology, that would possibly sustain life, and to show that subsurface activity is underway in near polar areas where we can't yet land a rover or fixed laboratory.
To find the various news releases of 'CO2 ice' vaporized as a gas, then 'carving' a series of channels in permafrost soils and rock, is a caricature of science, and shows the lack of civility we receive as non-titled observers in these casual presentations.
In the 'dunes active geology' fossil striations I presented which is accepted as science, the explanation is that salts are high in concentrations along the layers of the dunes, giving alteration capable of positive relief features. The high salts, are available clearly along the layer margins, yet I have many times discussed the spiders as active along the margins of layers in the near polar regions. The audience on this blog tells me I cannot assume the spiders are active because of crystalline minerals, salts, liquids, and other than sublimation simple CO2 ice.
Clearly the seasonal attributes are active and multi-chemical and crystalline formations, not CO2 only.
It will require a 'educated person' to present the information.

Materials, CO2 concentrated, salts from active chemistry and light, radiation, erosion, positive relief shapes, crystalline ordering, seasonal activity which tends to originate at prior point or growth sources where liquid type brine were active and eroding the surface, and the active points often seen as crystalline cores, accumulate to suggest not a CO2 ice system, but an analogue of Earth life requisite system.
Now the claim of liquid bribes as a source of geological active building above the soil line.
I do not easily disregard complex information patterns.
I see erupting materials all across the Earth. I see similar activity all across Mars. I see that on Ceres, and other bodies, even on Pluto. Why would I fight the obvious? Is it alive? Active mysteries, but not a finished study.
I would expect the 'source' of life to be much the same for Earth and Mars. I would also expect each to be very different, unless the 'source' was human, recent, or restricted in capability.
Cohesiveness in the cone image shows active affinity. It is not dirt primarily, yet not a sublimation material. Accumulation on the sunlit side. No erosion anywhere. Light to a build in positive relief. No 'relaxation'.

Dana Johnson


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Reply: 31



PostPosted: March 29, 2017 11:00 PM 

What about this source of a spider in 049288, HiRISE?

https://i.imgsafe.org/c723f336f2.gif

A ringed feature both positive and perhaps negative in elevation. A source of diffusion resulting in channels. Just CO2 as explained by the many years of research?
Different than the various active items on several bodies, including Pluto? Most features are similar in active geology scenes on various bodies. Life, chemistry, sublimation, geology, or more?

Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

Reply: 32



PostPosted: March 30, 2017 10:18 AM 

This is HiRISE ESP_049295_1050 IR, red, at 1 to 1 size, then altered views at 3 to 1 size, with the core of each distinctly showing the 'petal structure' I have referred to routinely in past topics. The petals here are at elevated point and circular cone shapes, and the activity occurs at the ordered cores.
This does not have to be life, but shows Mars is active at formations which have crystalline ordering, as in Earth life.

https://i.imgsafe.org/d111ead98f.gif

John Radogno


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Reply: 33



PostPosted: March 30, 2017 3:50 PM 

Dana,
The last HiRise image is very interesting but is a tough call to make on what we are seeing. But I am definitely hooked and will be spending a lot more time on HiRise!
I have some questions about CO2. ON Earth we see CO2 evaporate into air. On Mars, with its extremely low atmospheric pressure and cold temps, is there any way that CO2 can melt to a liquid?
Also, It is known that water Ice freezes every Martian winter and that is what I thought was causing the spider like channels. Could it be that these are not flow channels at all, perhaps being a melt related process that defuses outward like an ever expanding crack in an ice sheet (but different of course being on Mars).
As far as the cone is concerned we are just not going to be able to agree for a while. Where you see the cone top covering the crater rim edge, I see it clearly inside the rim, especially when I look at the pixels. Where you see a braided like wrapping on the crater rim, I see an artifact of the pixilation as a result of the Zoom function. We will have to get another picture.
I do not have a problem with the idea of cones being found on Mars. Venting of water brines into spouts that build up over time makes perfect sense. Pressure jets of ice and dust have been found to be seasonally active on the South Pole of Mars so we know these things can happen.

Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

Reply: 34



PostPosted: April 2, 2017 2:47 PM 

We may be offending Faceless, the topic host here, but as this is some of the most active processes on Mars, is seasonal and a growth pattern altering it's environment repeatedly, and uses the common water and CO2 ice, liquids, and gases for observed integrated aspects, it is the closest to life in displayed functioning that can be seen as yet on the records. Rover closeups haven't as yet shown seasonal changes as it wasn't a chosen technique on targets suggesting shapes and altered materials.
I was blocked from getting online here for several days again. I have examples of the 'spiders' closeup from this years images at HiRISE, but they are distributed across several devices and the image hosts are notorious for altering and eliminating my image numbers to their host titles.
From the imgsafe.org host, these stills show the positive relief, elevated central cores and the geometric patterned cap 'rock' or built up conduits causing the geometric extended tendrils which have smaller positive relief details to the limits of resolution. The colors of exiting material is differing from the dark fan debris product, the tendrils match the inner vent rounded walls, and the vents of many when visible are very angular, patterned, and if you compare the various examples I show, they are very mathematically regular as a system of 'symmetry' or repeated characteristics. The two axis or three axis extensions is common, despite our viewing for only a few seasons thus far. Alterations over time becomes or shows both positive built up materials over timing, overlapping but sequential to added positive prior emissions or growth extensions, and,as these 'grow' over time, watching both positive building or positive and eroding processes as two alternatives is open to observations.

If you observe the inner bright reverse toned conduit, there are six 'sides' rounded due to the exiting material which is continuous with the main large 'tendrils'. The three axis, six sided process is repeated in many simple spiders. The last image, showing the very outermost vent opening, is six sided, hexagonal, and matches the angular cap 'rock' shaping which is hexagonal as well. Shading and the inner view is commensurate with a portal or vent, darkest to the lighted face side, diminishing to a much smaller darkest tone at the left. That isn't shown here, as the shape becomes less obvious, and the hosts have limits to the anigifs I can upload.
I will show a anigif of these images in a later post.
These could be interpreted as rock, volcanic late stage ports, living objects?, or ongoing crystalline activities with current emissions. Also possible is a cave system developing from the ice sublimating, giving a classic cave breathing by weather.
Looking at the symmetry of the several examples, and the earlier posted 'smokestack' shape, the total of examples shows what I originally described, sequential timing of positive relief growths, erect cores or inverted cones with dark ports, and a subsurface active process which is repeatedly active.
Other examples will be uploaded from my other device. These are on my google+ account, facebook, and twitter now.

Dana Johnson


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Reply: 35



PostPosted: April 2, 2017 4:10 PM 

For whatever reason again, the prior post made an hour past is not appearing. I have this anigif of the ESP_049295_1050_rgb_jp2 image which allows an approach to the 'spider' vent and can be downloaded for your viewing offline. In the artists sketch of the active spider vents, the display is of a vertical 'exhalation', yet many venting spiders are along layer margins of layered terrain, where the vents would likely be along the layer slope line. As the Trinity College research by Mary Bourke and others shows, often the slope of adjacent layers is not vertical, giving a need to study the percentages of burning versus exposed spider structures.

The spider here is very near the margin edge of a crater debris field, and it may or may not be originally stimulated or sourced from the impact energy of the crater exhumation. Possibly these are occurring below ground level and this has been brought to the surface by the impact excavation?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_sAwKRj5FOiTWRfekdWeE8xczQ/view

John Radogno


Posts: xxx

Reply: 36



PostPosted: April 3, 2017 12:08 PM 

Dana,
RE: 34. Nice pictures but are you sure you're not seeing it from the wrong side of the Necker Cube illusion? I see the sunlight coming from the south side of the picture, the shadows on the north side of the features. The tendrils as channels...
Consider:

About Faceless, the best thing he does is is work with oids. We are not yet able to prove that they actually are oids or that if they are they are caused by biological processes, but it is very, very possible and when it is proven he may end up with a Nobel Prize for science!

Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

Reply: 37



PostPosted: April 3, 2017 5:00 PM 

Upon closer study of the interior and outer vent, it appears to have eight furrows, seven distinct inner extensions, but the outermost surface and cap has the appearance of only six sides. Difficult to estimate the lighter bottom portion, different color material. There is a match to the extensions along the inner walls. The octagonal crater rim of the prior spider may be a standard count, statistical assessment would be needed. Could ice form and exit from these ports seasonally, as a standard of spider fan processes? Are there two spider types?
Could this be a growth item or is the chemistry building in some regions and eroding in others? The link today seems to be working, and I am online again.

Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

Reply: 38



PostPosted: April 3, 2017 5:30 PM 

Many spider items are elevated or positive relief features, not only the erosion type processes. That was one of my primary complaints with the simplistic concepts of ice as a slab powering these seasonal growths. Either way, the superposition does clear up the confusion in most images, and rocks are a interpretation standard on rely upon. The examples are impressive as you have found fine close matches to the prior red toned IR crater I presented. Gypsum interlude 'plates' appear to be in place growths between dunes often at Olympia Undue Mars. Often the ground appears altered at dark dune margins. These things are now claimed to be indicators of the presence of active transient liquid water by current research. That was scoffed at on this blog routinely over the early years of the turn of the century. If caves chilled air on Mars, would it tend to settle CO2 ice internally as a source of rapid gas release, or is there an active other source of CO2 release above these 'fans and spiders? Something is still missing.

Try enlarging the image showing the inner conduit. No lighting mistake involved, just a view no one else has ever shown prior.

Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

Reply: 39



PostPosted: April 3, 2017 5:57 PM 

Can we imagine an ice based active object powering spiders? No measurement of any yet, but the items I found on Phoenix site ice was obvious. Expected that any objects would be below the surface, and related to an ice source.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/YIF_v

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