Mount Sharp - Extended Mission 1 - Page 52

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AZ-Dave


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PostPosted: September 30, 2015 11:58 PM 

LWS & Kye - and everyone else too

I spent 3+ hours today reading every post since page 41 of this thread. I arrived at this forum quite by accident, and I am exceedingly happy to have found it, and also see that people with scientific knowledge and possibly even geology background are not seeing just "Rocks" and a dead scene. I frequent the "other" forum, and was very quickly put into my place as far as asking or presenting anything other than ANCIENT rocks etc. The reason I was basically told to be quiet on that forum was because I suggested Veins back at the "Garden" seemed to be younger, and almost certainly were water-related, I was told they were formed under immense depths and pressures billions of years ago...I then said "How did they get to the surface, they must have formed when the shallow sea was present because they are intersecting clear Nasa-Approved rocks showing water erosion" - To this I was told "The going hypothesis is that Gale crater has been Buried, and Exhumed under 10's of KILOMETERS of overburned "Several Time" in Mars' History"...I challenged that by asking "So why is roughly half the ground sand and half rocks, how did the sand "blow" away out of the crater with a 1/100th Earth Atmosphere"...anyway, again I was told, over hundreds of millions of years, mm by mm will equal Kilometers (mathematically true), they even went on to explain how the overburden was "microscopic dust" - but they failed to account for pebbles, sand etc that are too heavy to be moved by Mars' thin Atmosphere - so I stopped trying to have a critical conversation.

To that End: Winston - My growing hypothesis for sand "creation" and exhumation/removal does not consider it possible that Gale Crater was literally buried under Kilometers of sand/pebble/etc several times. The atmosphere is simply too thin to carry anything larger than "talcum" dust. We are then left with where the dust comes from...how can it "move" uphill, etc etc...

To me, there appear to be 2 different types of sane avalanche/flows. Darker ones, and ones where it looks more like the surface crust slides over underlying material. Several of the dark ones appear to be "damp", possibly even wet. The others I cant tell. I think there is no reason why existing Briny "water" could not be responsible for some of them, and others might literally be the weight and Vibration of Curi roaming within a few meters effectively triggering slides. In other words, multiple different types of slides are probably happening for very different reasons.

And finally, while Im still at it: Sand "Uphill" - I have several Mechanisms that can account for sand being "uphill" and not "running out", and it may be all of them:
1) dust coalescing into larger particles via a water vapor/dew cycle - essentially "new" sand literally forming using the perchlorates/salts and water vapor in the air to bind into larger "sand" particles.
2)Warm/Cold cycle of rocks over millions of years, combined with the miniscule effect of duststorms...AKA - sand/small rocks literallt flaking/breaking off from parent rocks...we just dont get to see this on Earth, since we have techtonic plates consuming crust...on mars 100 million years might reduce a 10-ton rock to 1 2-ton rock by nothing more than cold/warm/freeze/thaw cycle.
3) UV/Chemical reaction constantly "baking" and altering the rocks surfaces...dont underestimate the power of UV light with virtually no atmosphere over hundreds of millions of years - look at what UV does to things on Eart in just a few decades...now factor in salts, and dew/frost, and how that can break down the rocks over aeons. Sand, pebbles, rocks splitting in half, etc.
4) Potential for some of the "sand" to be biologically-formed...Opportunity took several microscope images back in August of what I can only describe as "fuzz" - it was not sand particles...they imaged the same area over and over for a week and half, then finally moved on...new microscope images show sand...something interested them for several weeks...we only really "know" what they want to "tell" us....but its not impossible.

Sorry, long winded, but Ive been trying to discuss the whole sand issue, and where its coming from for months, even years, and now found some people to discuss it with...thank you!

LWS


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PostPosted: October 1, 2015 8:54 AM 

AZ-dave;

Whew! You've made my day.

Your comments are like a breath of fresh air to me. You've asked many of the same questions I've been asking on this blog since the days of Spirit.

I've gathered some of the images from Curiosity and Opportunity into a longish PDF paper that posits that The slides or "Debris Flows" and the Veins are the most important features related to Life at the surface of Mars that has been revealed by those rovers and that, having confirmed that liquid water is primarily responsible for the RSLs, it leads inexorably to the conclusion that Levin did indeed find life on Mars in 1976 and that the underlying cause of the "debris flows" is water.

It has also let in the conclusion that the veins are absolutely current and not exhumed structures formed billions of years ago and now visible and CLEAN on the surface wherever the rovers travel.

I uploaded my new book "On Debris flows and mineral veins, where life on Mars resides"a couple of days ago and am very disappointed that not one soul on BU has seen fit to comment on it. Hope you will read it and comment. I'll post the URL soon. It is just a draft at this stage but I am hoping to put up a final version within the next day or two.

Thanks for following the arguments that myself and Kye have been making and not ignoring them.

Winston

LWS


Posts: xxx

Reply: 1023



PostPosted: October 1, 2015 9:51 AM 

AZ-dave and any others who might be interested;

I've uploaded my latest draft of the "Debris Flows" pdf ebook to scribd

The url is https://www.scribd.com/doc/283330670/On-Debris-Flows-2nd-Draft

here

There are a few more images, references and some text in this draft.

I hope to put up the final version within the next 4 or so days.

Winston

AZ-Dave


Posts: xxx

Reply: 1024



PostPosted: October 1, 2015 12:58 PM 

Thank you for the link, I will download and take a look.

Now I need to find out how to post images on this forum, my posts appear to be a non-logged-in type. I dont see a place to register/login, so I will keep posting like this until I can figure it out.

The images acquired the other day SOL 1115: http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/multimedia/raw/?rawid=1115MR0049700020601328E01_DXXX&s=1115 & http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/multimedia/raw/?rawid=1115MR0049700100601336E01_DXXX&s=1115 (upper left of center) seem to show things that curve and end in nodules...once again, very difficult to explain via std erosion models...the curving defies explanation without "active" (past or present) processes going on. At some point, people have to say if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...well, what is it?

And especially this image from SOL 1115 shows several features, that I simply cannot explain using any normal erosional model.

AZ-Dave


Posts: xxx

Reply: 1025



PostPosted: October 1, 2015 12:59 PM 

Whoops - here is that last image link: http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/multimedia/raw/?rawid=1115MR0049700000601326E01_DXXX&s=1115

LWS


Posts: xxx

Reply: 1026



PostPosted: October 1, 2015 2:03 PM 

AZ-Dave
Just type in the links on a separate line

For this link [https://www.scribd.com/doc/170761631/In-search-of-life-on-Mars]

Type it straight.
https://www.scribd.com/doc/170761631/In-search-of-life-on-Mars

And it should be OK.

Winston

LWS


Posts: xxx

Reply: 1027



PostPosted: October 1, 2015 2:06 PM 

Oops!

My mistake, that was for a document. When I get back from a daily errand i'll correct it.

But for an image, if you type the url on a separate line a thumbnail of the image appears.

Winston

AZ-Dave


Posts: xxx

Reply: 1028



PostPosted: October 1, 2015 8:19 PM 

Im havin a heyday with SOL 1115 images...was looking at this one:
[http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl-raw-images/msss/01115/mcam/1115MR0049680000601323E01_DXXX.jpg]

When it struck me that the little spheres in the upper left quadrant were light/white and perhaps shiny...in other words, Not covered in dust...why? These things, as well as the globules on top of root-like "fingers" coming up out of the sand and rocks need extremely close examination...Its screaming at us "LOOOOOK AT ME".

Im not going to go as far as to say biological, but something very recent is at work in patches, these things are in "action" so to speak.

LWS


Posts: xxx

Reply: 1029



PostPosted: October 1, 2015 11:09 PM 

AZ-dave;

Look at this one from sol 1117.
Seems to me it looks like the inside of an eroded martian stromatolite with Oppy like berries and some artifacts outside as well as the ubiquitous debris flows.

Winston

LWS


Posts: xxx

Reply: 1030



PostPosted: October 1, 2015 11:39 PM 

AZ-dave;

Here's another one from sol 1117. 3D-Xeyed look at honest-to-goodness blueberries and a wet looking set of debris flows.

Winston

LWS


Posts: xxx

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PostPosted: October 1, 2015 11:41 PM 

Look at this one from 1117

wet looking debris flows and blueberries

Winston

LWS


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Reply: 1032



PostPosted: October 2, 2015 10:07 AM 

First 3D look at emerging Gale Blueberries. Curiosity is in such an interesting area now that lots more images of things like these might be forthcoming.

Winston

AZ-Dave


Posts: xxx

Reply: 1033



PostPosted: October 5, 2015 4:12 PM 

Yeah, that structure on 1117 caught my eye, a lot of stuff going on for sure. Whatever it is/was, appears to have been formed in or around mud...Ive also noticed several small depressions where rocks appear to have eroded the depression they sit in...which is very interesting.
The more I look at the pics, the less I can try to understand the theory that Gale Crater was buried then exhumed several times...Rocks dont "float" on sand/dust, and there is a LOT of exposed bedrock, Then there are the "shiny" rocks where half the rock is dusty and half virtually clean...Oppy is seeing this also.

LWS


Posts: xxx

Reply: 1034



PostPosted: October 5, 2015 7:18 PM 

AZ-Dave
Several mysteries indeed!
Re. the shiny rocks I think that in a number of cases Curiosity is the culprit. Often when you see a rock with one side rough and dusty and the other side smooth (and bluish) Curiosity has cleaned the smooth side with its laser or brush.

The structure in 1117 is extremely interesting in that it looks like the inside of a stromatolite (several of which are hollow) and then there are what looks like debris flows emanating from the sides of the walls and then there are the meridiani blueberries. Three mysteries for the price of one.

Mars is one weird place!

Winston

Barsoomer


Posts: 344

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PostPosted: October 6, 2015 11:38 AM 

[link]

Planetary Protection: Curiosity might go to RSLs.

AZ-Dave


Posts: xxx

Reply: 1036



PostPosted: October 6, 2015 1:35 PM 

Well, to me, its looking like caking, and of very fine particle sizes. They've been very interested in their newest hole for several days now...imaging with UV (looking for fluorescing presumably).
Looks like they smashed some of the tailing and it stuck together, but "what" sticks it together so well, perhaps some dew, or absorbing of water from air, dont know. But it interests the science team quite a bit.

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/multimedia/raw/?rawid=1124MH0003350010401664C00_DXXX&s=1124

AZ-Dave


Posts: xxx

Reply: 1037



PostPosted: October 6, 2015 1:43 PM 

Hopped over to the other Forum on unmannedspaceflight for Mt Sharp, and a few people have posted images going all the way back to SOL 1000, saying Nasa has released some previously undownloaded images. They even joked about "femur for sale"...haha

Whats interesting to say the lease, is Sol 1000 has some other very interesting features which again, just dont look like your normal erosion remnants of plain old rocks...Just a hat tip to anyone willing to do some more research.

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=38101

AZ-Dave


Posts: xxx

Reply: 1038



PostPosted: October 6, 2015 1:46 PM 

I still cant seem to get thumbnails of images by posting just the URL link on its own line, maybe I need brackets or something, but LWS - we are NOT the only ones looking at that crazy feature/structure on Sol 1117.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lunexit/21726151768/

Done by eliBonora.

LWS


Posts: xxx

Reply: 1039



PostPosted: October 6, 2015 5:57 PM 

AZ-Dave;

Here's an X-eyed 3D from another sol 1117 set of images.

Look at the dark slope streaks in the background; the nodular veins; and the lots of green (which might be a bayer reconstruction artifact)

Winston

Paul Scott Anderson


Posts: 53

Reply: 1040



PostPosted: October 8, 2015 6:50 PM 

More evidence that Gale crater on Mars was once a deep lake or lakes:

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/news/whatsnew/index.cfm?FuseAction=ShowNews&NewsID=1865

See also:

http://news.discovery.com/space/mars-rover-finds-gale-crater-was-once-a-big-lake-150810.htm

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