Mount Sharp - Extended Mission 1 - Page 49

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Author Message
Kye Goodwin


Posts: 1166

Reply: 961



PostPosted: July 24, 2015 1:44 PM 

LWS, re your 958, Thanks. Your version shows the activity better than the original image. But you are missing something important.

We can agree that gravity is moving the material downslope, though we both think that this is maybe not a complete explanation of the downward movement. But, I'm still trying to get people to understand that soil must be moving UPWARDS just as much as its moving downwards. Otherwise the process would soon end. Don't try to tell me that the soil moved upwards thousands or millions of years ago and has chosen the year of our arrival to move back down. We've imaged thousands of fresh to not so fresh downslope movements, that is, activity in the present and recent past, which demands that the CYCLE is being COMPLETED in the present era. Soil must be moving UPWARDS as well as down to keep the activity going.

And forget about the trigger mechanism for now. If the slopes are being loaded more and more then eventually the trigger for movement could be very weak or even unnecessary. If the trigger were in every case the rover, then this whole phenomenon might not be mysterious and extraordinary, but the rover is not the cause of the slides. In this case (your 95 Cool , for the rover to have triggered the movements, that whole pile of soil would have had to accumulate in a sol or two after Curi arrived at Cooperstown.

Kye Goodwin


Posts: 1166

Reply: 962



PostPosted: July 31, 2015 8:40 PM 

LWS, I hope it isn't my slightly aggressive language in post 961 that has caused your silence on this thread for the last week. If so, I'm sorry. I want people to challenge my logic.

Here's another example of a pile of sand that looks a lot like a colluvial cone. Below and left of center in the first view and upper left in the second:

The whole surface of the pile seems to have been recently disturbed by slide activity. The pile appears to be a few centimeters deep, that is, raised above the surrounding slope and meeting it at a sharp boundary where the steepness changes. Its hard to imagine how wind could have created this accumulation of sand. The sharp edge particularly must be the result of gravity movement, though possibly wind built a different sort of pile and then gravity modified it. There's a ripple in the image for comparison and there's not much similarity. This is one of those examples where even a rational person might wonder if the sand has come out from under the rock through a process that does not involve the wind.

LWS


Posts: 3062

Reply: 963



PostPosted: August 1, 2015 2:17 PM 

Kye;

There was absolutely no offense taken. I agree with some of your points and do not understand how you got a few like how you consider that the particles flow uphill.

I consider that they generally flow from under rocks. In fact here is an example of flows emanating from under rocks or through small small channels within rocks after significant shaking and dislocation of rocks by Curi's drilling.

here

https://lws.smugmug.com/Other/MSL-Curiosity/i-5R6Zjd9/0/O/1059MR0046540010104692E01_DXXX-drilled%20hole%20context-cropped.gif

Winston

LWS


Posts: 3062

Reply: 964



PostPosted: August 1, 2015 2:23 PM 

I forgot to indicate that the gif animation above is of two images taken by Curi on sol 1059 and sol 1060 respectively.

Note the flows at the top middle and on the lower right and left and at the bottom middle.

They look as if they originated from beneath the rocks. Several rocks are also displaced.

Winston

Kye Goodwin


Posts: 1166

Reply: 965



PostPosted: August 1, 2015 8:27 PM 

LWS, Good to hear from you. I'm desperately hoping to get another person to understand my excitement about these slides, so its good to know that you are trying and that I'm not yet getting it across. So I'll keep trying.

First to your pair of images, pre and post drilling. I'm interested in normal activity at Gale in the present era. Observing the behaviour of sand during the drilling might be useful eventually in understanding natural Mars processes, but in these mostly ignorant "early days" of investigation I'd rather not interpret the effects of artificial vibration at all. It seems to me that the movements of sand illustrated by that pair of images might show what sand would do if activated by vibration on ANY planet, not Mars in particular, OR it might show something special to Mars, but there's no easy way to separate the two.

Back to the slope activity. I'm not saying that the sand "particles flow uphill" as you suggest. What I'm saying is that there's a NEED TO EXPLAIN how the sand gets uphill normally, actively, in the present time. As we currently understand Mars there's just one reasonable answer: the wind blows the sand to a higher slope position. I'm sure that's what the Gale rover team would say if asked, because any other suspected explanation would be totally unexpected and extraordinary and lead immediately to a lot of research attention. I don't know how the sand is getting up the slopes, but it never looks much like the wind is responsible and often it looks a lot like it can't be the wind.

How does what we see differ from what we would expect to see if the wind were responsible for this ongoing sand avalanche activity, as it is in many places on Earth. For starters, we should expect to see active slip faces on dunes, but the rovers haven't seen any sand dunes. Dunes are defined by the presence of slip faces (sand avalanching) and the rovers have not imaged a single avalanche on a dune-like sand structure. We've seen ripples aplenty but all are without evidence of mass sand movements. Dunes provide a complete explanation for how sand avalanching can be a normal ongoing process that visitors to Earth would likely observe, but to do so the dunes have to move over the landscape. The "slip faces" we're seeing on Mars are all on rocky slopes that can't move across the landscape. So right away there's something unexpected and unexplained going on. Scientists may have expected to see slip faces on Mars, but if you went back to pre-rover times and told them that all the slip-faces that they would see in the first 10 years are going to be on stationary slopes, not dunes, they would have been surprised and want to know why. Maybe they'll yet notice and want to know why.

I've got several lines of evidence to deal with but I'm expecting to be interrupted at any moment, so I'll get back to this shortly. I'd sure like to hear from anyone who is following this.

Barsoomer


Posts: 344

Reply: 966



PostPosted: August 2, 2015 2:06 AM 

I'm not sure whether saltating sand can travel uphill, but in any case I don't see any great mystery. The quantity of sand involved in the flows seems to be a tiny fraction of what is there, so the existing inventory would take a long time to deplete. The wind might not blow sand uphill but it could erode the higher rocks, creating new sand. Thermal cycling could also contribute to the erosion.

LWS


Posts: 3062

Reply: 967



PostPosted: August 3, 2015 11:13 AM 

This could be the most important image so far that could aid in elucidating the connections between Veins and "debris flows" and perhaps show that veins are not only deposits of salts formed millions of years ago in a sterile environment through the intervention of standing water in cracks only.

Look at this vein from the Curi latest releases.

[link]

Winston

Barsoomer


Posts: 344

Reply: 968



PostPosted: August 3, 2015 12:10 PM 

www.universetoday.com/121597/curiosity-discovers-mars-rock-like-none-before-sets-drill-campaign

More drilling. Might be related to the vein material.

marsatic


Posts: xxx

Reply: 969



PostPosted: August 3, 2015 2:59 PM 

Mars crab? Wink

http://www.ancient-code.com/did-curiosity-snap-an-image-of-a-mysterious-creature-on-mars/

Raw image

LWS


Posts: 3062

Reply: 970



PostPosted: August 3, 2015 10:35 PM 

My take on my reply 967 image.
Processed in Gimp, autoequalized, sharpened and chromatic aberration.

Winston

LWS


Posts: 3062

Reply: 971



PostPosted: August 3, 2015 10:52 PM 

Marsatic; Is the "crab" the object at the centre of my crop of the sol 710 image you referred to in your reply 968.

It does look anomalous but could be an assemblage of veins as seen in many later sols.

Winston

LWS


Posts: 3062

Reply: 972



PostPosted: August 4, 2015 2:14 PM 

Kye / Barsoomer; re. my replies #963 and #964.

There is probably a bit of truth in both your counterpoints, stated or unstated.

But I don't think that I have got my point across re. the drillings and their apparently related effects on the movement of dark soil from under nearby pavement rocks.

My point is that there is sufficient visual evidence that suggests that these pavement rocks are typically very thin and shallowly placed and might be floating on a layer of dark subsurface soil that breaches the surface as dark streaks and flow downwards when there is some force that shakes, compresses or breaks the rocks.

I think that there is a possibility that the dark subsurface layer might be lubricated by small amounts of diurnal water and that microbes might also be involved in the system.

I therefore think that a good place to look for microbes by the next generation rovers might be in newly exposed "debris flows" or slope streaks.

I think it is a peculiarly martian system and not one that could be easily duplicated on Earth where the ubiquity of water would render such a system almost impossible to test in the open.

Winston

Kevin


Posts: xxx

Reply: 973



PostPosted: August 5, 2015 4:30 AM 

The Crab is also being called a Facehugger a la Alien LOL

http://metro.co.uk/2015/08/05/crab-like-alien-facehugger-is-seen-crawling-out-of-a-cave-on-mars-5327765/

LWS


Posts: xxx

Reply: 974



PostPosted: August 5, 2015 6:55 PM 

Here's a similar formation to the "facehugger" one

a sol 844 three-D image

Winston

LWS


Posts: xxx

Reply: 975



PostPosted: August 5, 2015 6:58 PM 

Testing

LWS


Posts: xxx

Reply: 976



PostPosted: August 5, 2015 9:16 PM 

Here's an intriguing image from sol 1063.

It shows a typical rock with lots of lamellae. The intriguing aspect is that draped over some of the lamellae is a greenish remnant of a viscous flow.

The image was a Bayer image that was processed in Gimp with chromatic aberration, autoEqualized and cropped to highlight the greenish area at roughly the centre of the cropped image

Winston

LWS


Posts: xxx

Reply: 977



PostPosted: August 5, 2015 9:45 PM 

Here's the xeyed-3D of my reply 976 image.

Look at it in stereophotomaker at X1.5 or 150% magnification.

Observe how the green stuff drapes over the edges of the rock lamellae. It has an eerie look of something resembling a myxomycete.

Winston

LWS


Posts: xxx

Reply: 978



PostPosted: August 8, 2015 11:43 PM 

Here's a 3D of my reply 970 image from sol 1059.

Winston

LWS


Posts: xxx

Reply: 979



PostPosted: August 9, 2015 11:11 PM 

Here's another example of a lamellar rock seemingly indurated by vein like material. From the sol 1065 Mastcam images

Winston

LWS


Posts: xxx

Reply: 980



PostPosted: August 11, 2015 6:37 PM 

Here's a 3D from two sol 1071 chem cam images.

Reminds me of the smooth oval pebbles that look like eggs in some earlier images.

Winston

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