Mount Sharp - Extended Mission 1 - Page 45

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Author Message
LWS


Posts: 3062

Reply: 881



PostPosted: May 24, 2015 4:28 PM 

Festus;

Please explain carefully why it is so obvious that water could not be involved in my #875. Would be grateful if you would list the points.

Also grateful if you would list the points that confirm why it is probably just as obvious that water IS involved in it the sol 712 activity

Winston

LWS


Posts: 3062

Reply: 882



PostPosted: May 24, 2015 4:34 PM 

And Festus, I think your response would be helpful, not only to me, but to the other 10 or so deluded persons who see water or moistness in some of the images where you see fines and who wonder what happens to the water that is in the soil (> 2% as measured by various instruments on the ground and more from orbit) when the crust is breached by whatever agency.

Thanks!

Winston

Festus


Posts: xxx

Reply: 883



PostPosted: May 26, 2015 9:12 AM 


The best answer would be viscosity. The flow on sol 712 is in accord with water. The high viscosity flows in sol 574 are not.

This event seemed to eject "fines" and then disappear. Only gas is capable of this.

Festus

LWS


Posts: 3062

Reply: 884



PostPosted: May 26, 2015 10:34 PM 

Viscosity?

Interesting!

How did Curi measure viscosity in the sol 712 flow? The sol 574 flows and the other ones around that sol could perhaps have been estimated using time lapse photography in addition to the DAN and other instruments but did anyone attempt this or is the implied high viscosity of those flows just a gut feeling?

Do you have hard data re the relative viscosities of the two events or can point me to such?

What about the real RSL's? Has anything been published about the viscosities of those flows?

How does viscosity negate my speculation that the fines mixed with a little water facilitates the flows and the water changes phase to a vapour and disappears soon after the flow is exposed at the surface?

Did you think that magmatic viscosity would be an apt measure in these cases?

Winston

Festus


Posts: xxx

Reply: 885



PostPosted: May 27, 2015 10:17 AM 


Winston. The only data available is limited visible. Height of flow is an indicator of viscosity. A flow still elevated around 30 degrees in gradient at rest as with sol 574 could hardly be water.

The sol 712 event started from a crack in the rock, proceeded across a slight downward graded ledge, then ran across the dune material before stopping in a typical low viscosity pattern.

As for ice rich fines: This is likely in most areas, but they could not generate the energy to cause the surface features on sol 574.

Unfortunately colors are signals. These signals have been removed or censored. Flash-off could represent itself in the visible spectrum. Even the gray-scale images are made outside of human reception. This not only hides but confuses the truth. As planned...

Festus

LWS


Posts: 3062

Reply: 886



PostPosted: May 27, 2015 8:18 PM 

A permafrost soil flow;

debris flow.

Winston

LWS


Posts: 3062

Reply: 887



PostPosted: May 27, 2015 8:28 PM 

It should have been this one:

Winston

Festus


Posts: xxx

Reply: 888



PostPosted: May 28, 2015 9:43 AM 


Winston, Your image of permafrost flows does not resemble sol 574. It is a gravity induced frost, freeze-thaw flow. Both visible appearance and mechanism are different.

Mars is dynamic in it own right. It does not need illusion. There is only one truth...

Festus

marsatic


Posts: xxx

Reply: 889



PostPosted: May 28, 2015 7:01 PM 

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/multimedia/raw/?rawid=CR0_486088190PRC_F0481570CCAM02998L1&s=998

Holy crap, what is that?

LWS


Posts: 3062

Reply: 890



PostPosted: May 28, 2015 10:20 PM 

Marsatic

Dunno!!

But could it be an area where Veins are being developed? Looks kinda biological to me.

Winston

Barsoomer


Posts: 344

Reply: 891



PostPosted: June 1, 2015 12:20 AM 

SETI Institute youtube presentation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekIqqwZuwYQ

Clay minerals on Earth and Mars and implications for habitability.

Dishman


Posts: 67

Reply: 892



PostPosted: June 1, 2015 3:09 AM 

Yes Barsoomer. I was responsible, in collaboration with another scientist, the presentation of a poster paper back in 2002 called "Life Surfaces" the abstract can be found here http://www.seti.org.au/lifesurfaces.pdf for those of you who are interested, so this concept is not new. It's also important to realize that there are implications for the start of life here on Earth as well.

LWS


Posts: 3062

Reply: 893



PostPosted: June 2, 2015 9:22 PM 

Here's a sol 993 debris flow that is a bit different.

Winston

LWS


Posts: 3062

Reply: 894



PostPosted: June 5, 2015 10:59 AM 

Did the MRB forum get a hit from scammers?

Kye Goodwin


Posts: 1166

Reply: 895



PostPosted: June 10, 2015 12:03 PM 

LWS, Thanks for the landslide (debris flow) image in 893. This looks like an older one to me, a gravity movement of material that took place some time ago, I'm guessing a few weeks to a few months back, that has now has "softened" edges as it" fades" back into the wider slope. We've now seen a few hundred fresh slides, and many older ones too, mostly since Cooperstown which Curi passed through 3/4 of a Martian year ago. If the slide activity is seasonal it covers most of the year.

Why is this unexpected activity on rocky slopes the most active process that the rovers have encountered on Mars? Maybe that's not an accurate claim. The wind driven changes to ripples that took place during the 2007 global dust storm were not impressive compared with the amount of material moving on these slopes at Gale, but the aeolian changes likely took place over a very wide area. Square meter for square meter though, the slides are moving a lot of material where they take place, compared with the tiny ripple movements during the one dust storm the rovers have witnessed. What aeolian activity at Gale is reloading these many slopes so they can slide down? There hasn't been any wind strong enough to move sand since Curi landed, at least as far as we know, but the little avalanches just keep happening as if they are independent of the wind.

Barsoomer


Posts: 344

Reply: 896



PostPosted: June 10, 2015 10:18 PM 

There are other forces besides wind on present-day Mars that could potentially cause sand to fall down-slope.

Dust is constantly falling from the sky, creating a burden on the underlying sand that might cause it to slip. The dust might also consolidate in some way to form new sand.

Thermal cycling causes rocks to expand and contract on a daily basis exerting considerable force on the surrounding sand.

Without having a seismograph on Mars, we don't know if there are frequent small or large tremors.

It is not clear what quantity of sand is actually moving downhill compared to the massive amounts that have built up over eons. It is possible the slippage rate might equal the erosion rate, or that there is a large reserve left over from a previous more dynamic era that is being depleted very slowly.

Kye Goodwin


Posts: 1166

Reply: 897



PostPosted: June 11, 2015 11:37 PM 

Barsoomer, re your 344, Thanks for your response. Gravity is the only force we need to explain sand movement downslope. My quest is to explain what force has placed the sand high on the slope so that it has the gravitational potential energy to slide down. The triggering event is maybe not important, or maybe it is, but it is not the same as the energy using process that loads the slopes with sand ready to slide.

Granted the evidence suggests that these slope processes the rovers have imaged are not the same as sand avalanches on Earth. Examples: The most common type takes place on slopes that have crusted over. Some of the dark streak variety seem to be very shallow, just a color change, carrying very little material downslope. Some of the sand stream kind at Meridiani pretty clearly emerge from very narrow fissures. So they are novel in various ways, but they all look like gravity is involved in the movement of material.

Dust definitely moves upward in Mars atmosphere and settles out on surfaces, so dust suspension could be an energy supplying process that loads slopes. But it looks like larger particles, typically grains 100 to 200 microns in diameter, that is sand, are the majority of the material that has slid in the MAHLI images from Kimberley:

The active sand slopes at Gale tend to be on average less dusty than the surroundings.

There are occasional particles in the slides that are larger than sand. There appears to be one such bright particle in the slide in LWS' 893. Its gotta be 3 mm. If these larger particles aren't being moved upward by the wind but are somehow being moved downward by the sand, then this process is a major force of erosion.

Barsoomer


Posts: 344

Reply: 898



PostPosted: June 12, 2015 1:10 AM 

> My quest is to explain what force has placed the sand high on the slope....

Kye, thanks for the clarification. Perhaps material moved upslope by impacts is sufficient to account for the quantity of sand that is flowing down?

Kye Goodwin


Posts: 1166

Reply: 899



PostPosted: June 14, 2015 12:41 PM 

Barsoomer, re your 898, Impact throws material uphill for sure, but a small recent impact should leave a visible crater. Big impacts on Mars are now rare and the big craters are ancient. Any theory that calls on essentially "fossil" gravitational potential energy in these sand slopes, that is a loading or steepening that took place long ago, or that has required many years of gradual accumulation, comes up against the counter evidence that these slide events are frequent and ongoing. If one believes that ALL the slides are caused by the rover, then ancient or very gradual loading becomes a possibility, but the rover isn't causing the slides. There are many older slides that took place before the rover arrived anywhere near and there are fresh ones visible more than 50 meters from the rover's closest approach.

As on the surface of Earth there is energy passing through this environment on the surface of Mars. Almost all of this energy is contributed by the sun which supplies about 40% as much irradiance as to the Earth. Assuming that it is solar energy ultimately that lifts the sand then there aren't a lot of obvious possibilities for the mechanism. The sun powers daily temperature cycling but it is hard to imagine how that process could lift sand. The sun also powers the wind and the wind is the obvious process that might be lifting sand onto these slopes recently and frequently.

Why do I wonder if wind is truly the agent? The slope processes seem to be concentrating and dissipating a surprising amount of energy in a very stereotyped way that doesn't quite fit somehow with the diffuse agency of the wind. I know that's not a complete thought but its the best I can do for now.

Joe Smith


Posts: 86

Reply: 900



PostPosted: June 14, 2015 2:53 PM 

Kye wouldn't the very nature of fines being
light ,very dry. carried by the wind to the
most possible deposit being the top of the dunes,,,, upon contact absorbing the moisture in the dune, (becoming x times heavier),,contribute to the "fall" evolving into a landslide?,,, Thus exposing for a while the moisture just below surface level?
Or am I totally wrong here?
I don't think anyone here on the MRB considers Mars as being 'dead',,, I believe the surface is a constantly changing environment, very much alive in the sense
of viewing change.
The mechanics of the fines adhesion to other
martin surfaces is not yet fully understood.
That is just my take on it,,, I admire your
(and all the others) persistence on understanding this constant face changing on Mars. Thanks.
I mean,, Did the moisture droplets on Phoenix
teach us anything???????The trench one day
dry the next day Ice??

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