YellowKnife Bay - Page 17

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Posts: 250

Reply: 321

PostPosted: April 12, 2013 4:09 AM 

Barsoomer, while going trough the REMS raw data of the included instruments (slowly as i have other duties too) I too got the impression they have/had a hard time making sense of the gathered data. Actually it is full of gaps, weird extreme values like temperature readings ranging from -133 C(!) to above 30 C and contradicting readings boom A and B - now think of that nice smooth plots they published... Smile
Regarding the humidity readings - I still cant get a grip on that from the raw data and we have to rely/trust on the plots the REMS team published. Actually I started to understand why they not publish the RH on their daily update marsweather site...
On the other hand, the pressure readings seems to be ok and reliable with a consistent diurnal variation of about 10% (day/night).

An interesting side-note: while checking the UV readings of REMS I got the idea to check past biology (survival-)experiments under Mars-like conditions and recognized that in most of that lab-experiments UV-irradiation was assumed consistently a little higher than the actual REMS readings suggest now (Gale crater)... Wink

John Henry Dough

Posts: xxx

Reply: 322

PostPosted: April 12, 2013 4:53 PM 

BS,,,,big thanks for reply#3-8

John Henry Dough

Posts: xxx

Reply: 323

PostPosted: April 12, 2013 4:54 PM 

reply #318

John Henry Dough

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Reply: 324

PostPosted: April 17, 2013 1:34 PM 

Please tell us more..


Posts: 250

Reply: 325

PostPosted: April 18, 2013 7:27 AM 

John, basically I would suggest to wait for reasonable calibrated (error controlled) data to be published by the REMS operators - interesting will be long term plots over the several Martian seasons.

What appears interesting already is that UV irradiation is a little less than most models suggest for the surface of Mars. Temperature and pressure are consistent with existing models so nothing unexpected here. Also there is humidity (I would expect more in higher latitudes - they still should have chosen MV for the landing site!) with a low level of putative consumable h2o for primitive microbial life (including an eco-system of methanogen/methanotroph archaea as suggested by Levin based on the data gathered by his Viking LR experiemnt) to feed on - as assumed in Mars survival experiments like this:

John Henry Dough

Posts: xxx

Reply: 326

PostPosted: April 18, 2013 11:52 AM 

It's very heartening to see work like this being turned out by dedicated people.
Germans are known for their engineering,,,
the small town in Louisiana that I went to school(Jena),,,,,had the only machine shop in a fifty mile radius,,,the name of it you ask.?Germany's


Posts: xxx

Reply: 327

PostPosted: April 19, 2013 5:02 AM 

MPJ thanks for sharing this with us it comes as no surprise and I believe that these bugs can survive beyond the 34 days. I have no doubt there was and still is microbial life on Mars. At a recent talk at the Royal Society here in London the speaker when asked off the record is there life on Mars the answer was yes! We brought it there as since Viking no missions have been sterilized, certain types of bacteria from Earth will survive on Mars.


Posts: 3465

Reply: 328

PostPosted: April 20, 2013 8:11 AM 

The climate model presented in the article Tides of light and ice: Water and rock made from snowmelt on Mars in my mind makes the possibility of life on Mars ( and hence Gale crater ) less likely.

The BEST place to look in Gale crater for ANY signs of past life is exactly where Curiosity is now. Of course, the rover will rush away towards Mound Sharp soon after solar conjunction.

And of course Oppy will soon rush away too.

I had an "aha" moment reading this article: The "draping" of the layers around Endurance crater now make sense: the model predicts that the layered rocks formed from snow melt would: 1) follow the topology and 2) be chemically the same as the planet-wide atmospheric dust - both observed in Endurance.

Also, dune "banding" makes sense now.

The model is great for understanding Mars geology - not so great for Mars biology.

John Henry Dough

Posts: xxx

Reply: 329

PostPosted: April 20, 2013 3:09 PM 

Well,,Yes to all above Horton,,except there
are different ways at looking at the same thing.

I don't agree that much w/Kites's paper.
He seems to me to be doing a lot of assuming.

The data in fact (to me) is showing Mars being
a bit more favorable for habitation.


Posts: 3062

Reply: 330

PostPosted: April 20, 2013 7:19 PM 

I tend to agree with you to a large extent. Will try to expand on this later. e.g. What are the slope streaks telling us? What are the Oppy Micro channels telling us also?



Posts: 344

Reply: 331

PostPosted: April 21, 2013 12:38 AM 

Interesting article and paper, Horton. I think their hypothesis would make the micro-channels understandable as runoff from localized patches of snow melt.

If conditions were such as to make life originating on Mars unlikely, and if we were nevertheless to find life there, and if it had the same genetic basis as Earth life, that would be strong evidence for Panspermia.


Posts: 3062

Reply: 332

PostPosted: April 21, 2013 5:51 PM 


It would also indicate that Life on Earth might be unique, if not a very scarce commodity in the Universe, and that the conditions for its occurrence might not arise from the occurrence of water and certain minerals and base pairs alone but that is a pervading essence immanent in some aspects of the cosmos. Perhaps we should read "Biocentrism" and consider the possibility that consciousness gave rise to life, wherever it might be sited, along with the universe itself and that there might be a universe imprinted in each of us. The biology we know might be central to everything. Without it nothing exists. Hort could tell us a lot about quantum mechanics and the "Observer".


John Henry Dough

Posts: xxx

Reply: 333

PostPosted: April 21, 2013 7:38 PM 

LWS,,ice(saline) mud from the start,so frost,,why not if pressure will permit it.
And yes we may be unique in this part of the solar system,,even in this part of the galaxy
but no matter men will search for life and
technology will just keep on getting better until one day,,,,

Barsoomer ,,,Correct,,,lots of good points being made,,,

Horton,,,,Thanks for all you do for without you we would have even LESS direction,,of common sense,,

mpj the rest who see this (frost of course),,,,Until we have boots on the ground on Mars,,,or a good sample return mission (w/mud????),,,we are left with the papers errr pdf's of imaginative fellow searchers.

John Henry Dough

Posts: xxx

Reply: 334

PostPosted: April 21, 2013 7:42 PM 

aso,,Horton,,no offense meant,,,,we can learn
and DO learn from what we see pictures of.

Science is and must always be an exact science.

Different views make these forums work.


Posts: 250

Reply: 335

PostPosted: April 22, 2013 6:22 AM 

That Kite-paper is a nice step to accommodate all those HiRISE observations labeled permafrost freeze/thaw morphology. Wink

I really wondered how long it would take the science communities to establish such a model of ice/snow melt driven features.

I would put some additions and recommendations though: As Kites paper is model driven based on CURRENT rather small scale observations I would caution for the time-frames involved. IMO the paper very well describes the current climate (geological speaking) including the observation of TSL while it is certainly centered on the last episode of high obliquity when there was more freeze/thaw action in equatorial areas.

All in all for me this paper is just another reason to relocate the search for life on Mars to higher latitudes and away from the equator which is in the current climatic cycle a very dry and static place.

Regarding early Mars and the possibilities for life to develop on Mars, this paper does not contribute much as it does not explain the larger water morphology like the channel networks in the confines of the suggested model. Mawrth Vallis for instance would have needed an enormous pile of ice/snow to melt very briefly in order to have been carved by short-term snow-melt...

John Henry Dough

Posts: xxx

Reply: 336

PostPosted: April 23, 2013 6:13 PM 

IE: Kites paper,,

I see it as "Preaching to the Choir"
ie: Stating the obvious,,,but don't get me wrong,,,as bs? has said a pretty good paper on Mars,,I agree with that,,,we need ALL the illumination we may achieve,,,study,study, so we can find the right questions,,we pass this along to the next Einstein or whoever may be interested.Who Knows?


Posts: 344

Reply: 337

PostPosted: April 24, 2013 4:21 PM 


Another "early Mars" paper that may fill in some of the gaps.


Posts: 344

Reply: 338

PostPosted: April 25, 2013 1:14 AM

The article seems to be truncated but the paper seems to be accessible.

John Henry Dough

Posts: xxx

Reply: 339

PostPosted: April 25, 2013 4:40 PM 

Yes,,very good BS,,

by Wordsworth et al. (2013)

already in the process of being put behind a Thanks indeed,,I have all 6 pages,,

John Henry Dough

Posts: xxx

Reply: 340

PostPosted: April 26, 2013 2:55 PM 

Model atmospheres are assumed to be composed of CO2,N2 and H2O only, and divided into 52 model layers.These layers are spaced approximately equidistantly in log (pressure),ranging from the surface to the fixed model id at 6.6x10-5 bar.
Interesting conclusions made also,,,,
a good read.

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