Water on Mars - Page 4

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Posts: 344

Reply: 61

PostPosted: April 24, 2011 2:21 AM 

Hi Serpens. A question about the kieserite. Perhaps it is being destroyed but is also being replenished. That would explain its continued existence, wouldn't it?

Obviously there are ways to create kieserite; otherwise it wouldn't exist at all. One way is from an evaporating brine. Early morning frost sinking into sulfate rock might create transient brines. Or maybe the kieserite is replenished during the periodic high-obliquity excursions when ice moves from the poles to more equatorial areas.


Posts: xxx

Reply: 62

PostPosted: April 24, 2011 3:51 AM 

perhaps it is being destroyed but is also being replenished. Nope. No way in the currenrt environment.


Posts: 344

Reply: 63

PostPosted: April 24, 2011 2:22 PM 

Serpens, thanks for the reply. I have to ask: isn't that a circular argument? You say the existing environment is totally absolutely dry, and the evidence is that the kieserite is persisting. The persistence could alternatively be explained by replenishment, but you rule that out because of the absolute dryness. What am I missing?


Posts: 344

Reply: 64

PostPosted: April 25, 2011 12:16 PM 


Periodic 75% increase in atmospheric pressure.


Posts: 161

Reply: 65

PostPosted: April 25, 2011 12:29 PM 

Hi Barsoomer. Keiserite takes a temp of about 121 f to form.

However, it is possible that the hydrated salts we see, Have been converted from Kieserite by hydration.
It could be this simple transformation, by hydration, is what is causing all the chemical erosion we see. By the expansion of bedrock.

All the kiserite we see, is from being exposed from below.

Ice forms on the kieserite salts at night, then turns to gas as the heat rises during the day. There is not enough time for the Kieserite to transform, into hydrated salts, EXcept, in certain locations.

I wonder if i had averhead veiw, where would the Kieserite be lacking? bottom areas of craters?, spots here and there, on the surface, like hortons little burple hole, that Kye says might be chemical erosion?

Oh, and when the orbit shifts, all bets are off. when was the last time?


Posts: 73

Reply: 66

PostPosted: April 25, 2011 12:42 PM 

Vast amounts of traped frozen CO2. Interesting. Dont be alarmed by the contradictions in the "Rock Guy" logic.

It's all they know, they dont know anything else.


Posts: 161

Reply: 67

PostPosted: April 26, 2011 11:22 AM 

The Other salts that exist in the images, the polyhdrated salts, these salts are said to change their hydration rates, daily, and seasonal.
These salts, could support halophiles, and would probably result in some type of color change, probly some type of Red, or Burple tint. Smile

Dana Johnson

Posts: 1195

Reply: 68

PostPosted: June 15, 2011 4:59 PM 

Stayed away from this discussion, as I try not to interpret small items in current scenes as possible liquids effects as well.
I looked at this newer HiRISE image, ESP_022364_1890, and it shows a small crater looking impact related, and a oval mound just beyond it looking as a throwout splatter. The mound upon closer inspection shows flows from the top, and may or may not be a removal from the nearby crater. As this is the Nili Fossae area, and that suggests silicate hydrated deposits in larger mounds and venting from the caldera active parts, is the material this late stage in appearance of surface pristine 'no crater' conditions and possibly an additional expression of very late or current geological action?
At what place and point in time is the liquid percolation not further possible?


Nili Patera and Fossae area above,...

If ice is present, it can percolate or move in mass. Is that accepted?


Posts: 5

Reply: 69

PostPosted: June 15, 2011 6:42 PM 

Dana; I had noticed the pile of debris earlier and couldn't come up with a possible source. I don't think it came from the nearby crater . Am also having trouble seeing the drainage off the pile. Could you be more specific.
The fractured surface rock doesn't look dessication related and maybe ice was involved but how ?

Dana Johnson

Posts: 1195

Reply: 70

PostPosted: June 17, 2011 9:23 AM 

I'll try to work on the general scene, and that spot, Ben.
It was a true surprise to me when I looked closely at the scene, as I expected just some sun-lighted glint off of local brighter brecciated rock. The record from Mars Express and possibly CRISM is of silica in hydrated form as a broad coverage, some indications of subsidence in ancient timing I assume, and as it has one of the highest methane recorded figures for Mars repeated releases, it looked like a deep chemistry release locale to me. I tried to imagine the deeper chemistry. CO2, radon from Argon decay, H2O possibly even recently, or, only methane from mineral and chemical sources.

In the image closeup of the mound, there is an eroded path down the highlighted left side, shallow, so not a cutting liquid, but margins by brighter remnants along the path. The sand shows no effect of liquid involvement, so timing would not be current by tens of years but we see ripples reassemble in short timing in many images on Mars.
At the upper right, and lower right, the diagonal effects is more like a massive deposit of solids in ovoid shapes, with depressed margins, and at the mid range to the base on the right side, there are several erosion path wandering down-slope. Granted in a very dry environment, if we add volumes of liquids we usually find a particulate pile to give a path straighter than those seen as depressed paths here.
I can see layered effects horizontally along portions of the mound. This may be a true alternative mound, related by local cratering, or a volcanic product in both items, but the fact of the erosion, and the radial patterned solid cap with the peak depression, shows a source of heat, with a material flow process.
Altogether, attaching this to water flows, or solvent type liquids would require mineral identification, so I may be over-suggesting a connection from a probable heat source, to a liquid source of powered effects in recent timing. True the area is ancient, and there are a few crater-like removal processes on the slopes, but this looks as much like a mini-volcanic vent of erosion paths, with probable liquids or solvent semi-liquids, as a crater and hot percolation by-product mound.
It's too tall to be a 'hot springs' vent type. Then again, this is Mars, where the liquids once formed would cause high angle accretion mounds, perhaps?
I return with better detailing.

Dana Johnson

Posts: 1195

Reply: 71

PostPosted: June 17, 2011 4:38 PM 

I assume these slight shallow paths were either surface or subsurface liquid breakdown, as would be common for a heated localized source of percolation.
As there are some channels issuing at a little distance of tens of feet away, and they are positive buildup margin troughs, the entire process was both volcanic or hydrothermal. I'll make an image of those.
How to distinguish one semi-liquid from another liquid type material?

Not a good image, but about 8X normal view, and contrasty.


Posts: 5

Reply: 72

PostPosted: June 19, 2011 12:36 PM 

Dana; It doesn't look like liquid but instead, larger chunks of specular material in a matrix of smaller granulated rock.
I could be extrusive cryogenic material but why has it not sublimated away?
FWIW the dunes appear to be younger and lap onto it.

Dana Johnson

Posts: 1195

Reply: 73

PostPosted: June 22, 2011 4:03 PM 

The bright material in the first image at reply #68, shows the source of the bright slabs and layered breccias sorted on the mound, as a partial sorted remnant of what was a shallow angle impacting crater source resulting in the oriented mound, and, there is another oriented 'thrown' mound in the identical orientation angle found further upward in the source HiRISE image. The sizes are a little differing, but with the same angles, I would have to access additional HiRISE area images to find the source of the probable secondaries that the two craters with mounds form as a set of two items.
The upward percolation and downward gravity controlled drainage would be a heat sourced local liquid process, but the two craters could be a lower sourced up-thrust material as a 'mud-like' material possibly, from some angular movement. That direction of heated source seemed less likely to me.
The erosion paths are certainly liquid or semi-liquefied material with no remnant residual along the paths, so, I think the solvent was water. There are bright inverted channel depressions(elevated 'U' channels), of the brighter material, outward beyond these elevated mound channels, and the connection between the two materials is real. I'll try to show that fact in later entries here.

Side mound larger erosion sources lower on the sides of the mound height seems to confirm internal sourcing of the liquid percolating.
The radial small oriented 'petals' at the upper peak depression indicates a long term source of mineralization or solidification of a state changing content source of movement.
Altogether it looks to me like a hydrothermal sourcing of both semi-solids and liquids, of more than one type material and state.
This is a recognized area of silica in hydrated state, volcanic heat type sourcing, tectonic activity, deep movement, large scale erosion/deposition in stages, and a early source of Mars liquid water.
The problem is as to whether the shallow paths are recent or early in Mars geological history.
Does this look like a possible former submerged silica hydration setting?
The mounds were non-the-less eroded with the elevated channels at a timing when the particulate mounds were open to air and elevated, as they are real erosion gravity paths with removal.
Other paths are visible as well on those mounds but are less visible.
Normal solid erosion, and air fall, will not produce the paths. Loose particulate debris sliding will not produce the visual paths. Only a liquid on Mars can create those paths. We could suggest a 'mud-like' volcanic process, but it still requires a solvent active and present.

Solid case. Liquefaction effect.
What was the age of occurrence in Mars history?

Dana Johnson

Posts: 1195

Reply: 74

PostPosted: June 25, 2011 3:31 PM 

If these formations began with the subsequent infilling and bombardment after the caldera occurrence, with what part of the last two billion years would these shallow undisturbed flow features have been eroded and built up?
This obviously was a gas and liquid flow pattern, multiple in timing and occurrences over time, caused by local geological events, and a part of the long term Nili formations, which still show flow features both old and fairly fresh.
The wind was from the upper right to the lower left usually, and the local dunes have carved into the bright surface formations along the outlines of recent dune margins, at times showing a movement of the dunes of large size, where the incised former margins altered the bright surface materials in an active geological altering process.
What motivated the carving of dune margins?
What caused hydrated minerals to form in later stage infilling and surface actions?
Could gases do those events?
Is not water and solvents the only method of the actions?
Would not water and liquids find the dunes a yearly repository of protection and favorable placement preferences?
An 8 tones flat colorized view of the more realistic mound image displayed in my prior posts.
Haven't been able to do a line drawing set of channels in converted view as yet.

The mound is in the range of a hundred by a few hundred feet wide versus long. Height looks like a few tens of yards/meters.
Would a dry eruption perform these channels with the obvious gas releases which were helping build the structure as it was being eroded.
As can be seen the newest surface seen shows a annulus around the incoming wind side of the peak depression, as in a volcanic cone active within recent timing. Right and upper side small ridge/ring, over former active channels of erosion.
Many faulted and layered effects from the side where the wind sourced over time. The dunes tell the recent winds as consistent with my description.
Any denials of recent timing and recent formation appearance?
Would sublimating ice cause the channels if sourced from the depression sources near the peak? Gas to ices or solids, ice to solids, solid to gas, resulting in carved channels?


Posts: 2270

Reply: 75

PostPosted: June 29, 2011 1:39 PM 

Dana; You present a number of possibilities , any of which could explain what we are looking at.
The only thing we can say with any confidence is that the dunes are wind blown and probably sand.
The mound looks like broken material and does appear to have channels down its slopes.
I fear that anything more will be guessing. Smile


Posts: 250

Reply: 76

PostPosted: July 1, 2011 5:07 AM 

Wow: at last someone other then me seems to have noticed the fogginess of some HiRISE images at ground level in certain areas (started to use the nvidia 3d vision system with Google Earth/Mars lately which makes it especially clear) Smile


from the caption: "Notice the numerous small, pristine impact craters with light-toned lobate ejecta blankets scattered throughout this region. This suggests that volatiles such as water may have persisted in the near surface. A thin haze or fog concentrates in the lower lying troughs and accentuates the traces of these now dry ancient water ways."

The same applies to numerous Arabia Terra (including Mawrth Vallis) and eg Holden and Eberswalde HiRISE observations as well...Mars definitely still got a good portion of water/ice in the middle to high latitudes (north/south alike) near the surface i guess.

Dont be shy NASA and put the (atomic powered) MSL to the somewhat higher latitudes where the action is Very Happy


Posts: 250

Reply: 77

PostPosted: July 3, 2011 11:38 AM 

"NASA research offers new prospect of water on Mars"


Posts: 250

Reply: 78

PostPosted: August 2, 2011 5:18 AM 

Dr. Levin and his son also suggested a model of a water cycle on current Mars which includes liquid water:


To the MER experts in this blog: Can the moist/muddy appearing rover tracks which happens to appear sporadic been correlated to images taken at early (Martian-) morning while most dry tracks appearing only during mid- and late day? Such correlation could strongly support Levin's model i guess.

On a side note: As I scanned the net for Levins "traces" and the according debates I got the impression that it all comes down to something like a "battle" between the "god of astrobiology" Mr. McKay of NASA and Dr. Levin of Spherix Inc. I think McKay strives to be the first to discover extraterrestrial live those strongly opposing Levins LR results. Yet as time gone by, now in the more current articles mentioning the LR experiment and Levin generally (very rarely of course) one can see McKay (as he is always cited in such articles) slowly closing in to Levin. Like they now consider the GCMS experiment which did not detect organics could have failed and yielded false negatives (due to perchlorates and lack of sensitivity) which was the main reason the Viking experiments have been considered to not detect life and tagged Mars as a sterile world until now.


Posts: xxx

Reply: 79

PostPosted: August 2, 2011 8:39 AM 

Gilbert Levin, the man who identified pools of liquid water on Burnes cliff for goodness sake doesn't really have much credibility does he?


Posts: 250

Reply: 80

PostPosted: August 2, 2011 9:00 AM 

Serpens, I guess you are referring to this: http://planetary.org/blog/article/00000998/

Actually you say the son of G. Levin is not credible - I dont know how credible he is as I dont got any real measure of credibility for scientists for myself. I normally judge by common sense and data. If the data proved him wrong on this he made a mistake which is normal part of gaining more knowledge. If there is not enough data due to the instrumentation of the MER (I know they got no means of detecting moist) I wouldn't say he made a mistake from my humble point of view yet though. Also I dont immediately always trust the so called consensus of the scientific world (which is rather small on the Mars related topics) as the "LR consensus" likely shows Very Happy

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