The Stain - Page 9

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Ben


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Reply: 161



PostPosted: March 12, 2011 2:57 PM 

John; You got the max vibration out of a metal lugged tractor (like Oppy) compared to your "newer rubber tired M. Smile

hortonheardawho


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Reply: 162



PostPosted: March 13, 2011 8:16 AM 

sol 2525-2535 ( Mar 2-12, 2011 ) changes:

The stain is on the move again.

Ben


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Reply: 163



PostPosted: March 13, 2011 7:01 PM 

Is there a sequence of "stain" images taken with a lapse of time and Oppy at rest ?

dx


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Reply: 164



PostPosted: March 13, 2011 11:42 PM 

Ben>>>

Please see post 84 this thread.

yt
dx

barsoomer


Posts: 344

Reply: 165



PostPosted: March 14, 2011 3:04 AM 

In Horton's #162, some of the changes may be due to shadowing. In particular, the new projection on the right may be a shadow of an elevated knob.

Ben


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Reply: 166



PostPosted: March 14, 2011 4:37 PM 

dx ; That post has been removed.
Obviously what I am attempting to determine is if the stain moves while the rover is absolutely still for a short time.

Any movement sans wind would eliminate the vibration theory. Smile

Psych Author Profile Page



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Reply: 167



PostPosted: March 14, 2011 9:59 PM 

Oh yeah #84 sorry I blew that one up accidentally Embarassed and have not replaced it yet. There is this one, all the pancam color sundial images from sol 1 to 2485. 15:27 minutes

or a faster version here. 4:20 minutes

Only thing about the color pancams, they don't show the extent of the stain away from the sundial.

I'll put the other back together and repost the linky.

Psych Author Profile Page



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Reply: 168



PostPosted: March 14, 2011 10:08 PM 

Oh yeah and keep in mind that the sundial was not always imaged or, was usually only imaged once per sol, there are a few exceptions. So, we don't know what the stain actually does the other 99.99% of the time it's not being imaged. I suppose I could figure out how many seconds elapse between each sundial image from the file name, make the delay between frames equal some corresponding MS value but then it might be very long and boring or, very jerky.

dx


Posts: 1661

Reply: 169



PostPosted: March 15, 2011 12:40 AM 

Psych>>>

Thanks for coming to the rescue...I hadn't tried the link in 84 before I acknowledged it out to Ben even though I watched it when you first posted it with thanks too for your invaluable time.

Hi Ben, I see no reason to coincide rover movement with the stain movement. Wouldn't the rover pics of the dial be from a stand still anyway? I think the rover would not be photographing itself while on the move-wouldn't you?

In fact that would be very interesting indeed to see-but there are no 'roving' Rover movies that I have seen-dial or no dial. It just stands at rest and photographs the surrounding areas of interest! That's all we have.

yt
dx

Barsoomer


Posts: 344

Reply: 170



PostPosted: March 15, 2011 2:25 AM 

I doubt that the electric motor on the rover would cause vibration comparable to a tractor engine. Nor would motion at the top speed of 1/10 m.p.h. over flat ground.

If the movement of the stain is due to rover motion, it would have to be caused by the rocker-bogy mechanism as the wheels climb over rocks. In other words, the stain material would be in free fall for a split second and might fall into a different shape. So we should expect changes only when the rover is driving over rocky terrain. The stain particles would essentially be doing a random walk unless they get stuck somewhere, or unless they stick to each other or to the deck.

Ben


Posts: 2270

Reply: 171



PostPosted: March 15, 2011 12:24 PM 

Barsoomer; The wheels were larger and the lugs longer on the tractor but vibration on hard surfaces(like Meridiani bedrock) were even worse at low speed.

Again, my point is , if this material is truly inanimate, it shouldn't move when Oppy is stopped. Right?

hortonheardawho


Posts: 3465

Reply: 172



PostPosted: March 15, 2011 2:15 PM 

stain animation from 1919-2535 ( Jun 17, 2009 - Mar 12, 2011 ) :

Every one of the images was taken at a different location.

There were periods of time during which the rover was moving where there was little change in the stain.

Barsoomer


Posts: 344

Reply: 173



PostPosted: March 15, 2011 5:40 PM 

Ben is saying that his hypothesis about the stain changes being caused by vibration could be disproved if someone can exhibit an interval where there was no rover movement, but significant changes in the stain nevertheless occurred.

I think this is a list of the Sols between 1920 and 2051 when drives occurred:

1920 1923 1927 1930 1942 1946 1947 1950 1952 1954 1957 1959 1961 1981 1997 2000 2001 2002 2004 2006 2007 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2017 2020 2022 2024 2027 2032 2034 2038 2040 2041 2042 2043 2045 2047 2048 2049 2050 2051

so for the intervals between these, I think there was no movement of the whole rover, although there may have been arm movements. The longest gaps in this range were in the periods

1930-1941
1961-1980
1981-1996

Ben


Posts: 2270

Reply: 174



PostPosted: March 15, 2011 6:45 PM 

Barsoomer; Correct
Preferably it would be good to see images before and after rolling over bedrock terrain ,showing shifting and then images before and after it sat idle for a several days without any shifting.
I doubt movement of the arm would cause vibration unless its gears are worn and it chatters a bit as it is operated, but that may be the case also.

Psych Author Profile Page



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Reply: 175



PostPosted: March 15, 2011 9:07 PM 

The only ones that might be taken underway would be the Navcams. Seeing as how some of those can be sewn together to make animations of the rovers driving, makes sense they could be taken on the move I suppose. Probably not though, I've never checked exposure times on the Navcams.

Then there is the issue with Navcam resolution not being the best and they usually don't subframe the Navcam on the sundial like they do the Pancam. Confused

Barsoomer


Posts: 344

Reply: 176



PostPosted: March 15, 2011 11:11 PM 

sol_2523 sol_2520 sol_2519 sol_2478 sol_2468 sol_2464 sol_2462 sol_2454 sol_2452 sol_2451 sol_2450 sol_2447 sol_2442 sol_2438 sol_2436 sol_2433 sol_2429 sol_2427 sol_2424 sol_2415 sol_2412 sol_2406 sol_2404 sol_2403 sol_2401 sol_2395 sol_2393 sol_2383 sol_2382 sol_2379 sol_2358 sol_2355 sol_2349 sol_2348 sol_2336 sol_2335 sol_2334 sol_2333 sol_2330 sol_2328 sol_2327 sol_2326 sol_2320 sol_2315 sol_2311 sol_2301 sol_2300 sol_2295 sol_2293 sol_2286 sol_2283 sol_2279 sol_2277 sol_2274 sol_2272 sol_2254 sol_2246 sol_2243 sol_2240 sol_2231 sol_2229 sol_2226 sol_2218 sol_2215 sol_2211 sol_2208 sol_2206 sol_2204 sol_2199 sol_2197 sol_2194 sol_2188 sol_2176 sol_2171 sol_2169 sol_2167 sol_2165 sol_2163 sol_2161 sol_2149 sol_2136 sol_2063 sol_2055 sol_2051

Above are all the Sols after 2050 for which traverse maps are listed in the JPL traverse map archive. I assume these are the Sols on which drives took place (although it might not include smaller "bumps" or approaches).

I don't think Navcams are taken while the rover is actually moving, but we don't need those; we only need before and after shots. The Navcam resolution only needs to be good enough so that we can tell whether a significant change occurred or not. Our main problem is that there is only patchy coverage of the stain area in the navcams. The periods when the rover was driving backwards is probably our best bet for getting navcam images of the stain.

Psych Author Profile Page



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PostPosted: March 16, 2011 12:24 AM 

"The periods when the rover was driving backwards is probably our best bet for getting navcam images of the stain."

Thaat should be easy, isn't a good portion of the traverse from Victoria backwards due to the unstowed arm configuration?

hortonheardawho


Posts: 3465

Reply: 178



PostPosted: March 16, 2011 4:12 AM 

sol 2479-2517 R2 of the sundial stain at site B1AX:

Notice that the greatest change was during solar conjunction when the only activity was a Mössbauer integration.

Psych Author Profile Page



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Reply: 179



PostPosted: March 16, 2011 10:20 AM 

It's back, from Sols 1 to 2467 the MMB version
23:56 long, at least the FF and RW work, sols and location info in the bottom left of each frame.Opportunitys Sundial from Sol 1 to 2467

And some statistics about the Pancam sundial images:
I use Midnight Mars Browser to fetch new images from NASA and the Exploratorium, it's usually a sol ahead of the NASA rover site. ~16,754 images of the sundial currently to Sol 2537.

L1 107
L2 1916 259 of these are wide angle
L3 863
L4 1327
L5 1852
L6 1539 256 of these are wide angle
L7 1882 255 of these are wide angle
R1 1236
R2 1236
R3 846
R4 880
R5 852
R6 1034
R7 1184

Ben


Posts: 2270

Reply: 180



PostPosted: March 16, 2011 1:46 PM 

Thanks Psych;
Your sequence sheds a lot more light on the growth of this feature.

I don't recall the tractor vibration causing growth like you show but more of change in shape and redistribution. I stand baffeled.

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