The Stain - Page 20

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PostPosted: September 14, 2011 9:50 AM 

On sol 2707 the rover turned in place to face uphill. IMHO that movement and the resulting vibrations on the rocky surface and the downward tilt of the rear resulted in the appearance of the stain 'spreading' when it was imaged again on sol 2708.

Stan


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PostPosted: September 14, 2011 10:13 PM 

Great stuff Glenn. Thanks for going to the source.

Stan

dx


Posts: xxx

Reply: 383



PostPosted: September 16, 2011 8:16 AM 

glenn>>>

Since there are no live organics of any sort or type on Mars the only true active material will be that which has a mechanical movement attached to it which would lead to a fine black powdery dust and definitely not to an 'oil slick' on the deck of Oppy.

Study horton's .gif images a bit deeper. You will see movement of dust but not 'fluid' movement. You will see black particulate waxing and waning without residue or stain remnants left behind, which would certainly mean a 'liquid' of sorts is not present.

The magnetic black particulate I mention is over and above any miniscule magnetism generated through a wire by a solar panel. And as noticed no such attraction on the wires has taken place. The black soot is unmistakably gathered away from the wires spreading its thickness when thickest-caused more than likely from Oppy's disjointed rollings over the surface.

This is clearly very fine black matter or substance from the surface or atmosphere of Mars that has assembled in this particular point on Oppy's deck...now what attracts it to remain here waxing and waning for us to puzzle over is another issue...can you solve that issue?

yt
dx

glenn


Posts: xxx

Reply: 384



PostPosted: September 17, 2011 3:52 PM 

dx

I'm still not convinced it's NOT outgasing, but the owner of the creation of the chips didn't give me high confidence that it is.

With respect to mechanical movement, outgasing qualifies, which is why I suggested it. Literally anything with a vapor pressure, including steel, will outgas if you wait long enough.

As for claiming a liquid, well, that would outgas faster than a solid and the horton "movie" was over hundreds of sols. Very slow action.

As for miniscule on magnetism through a wire, well, it ain't. you can get the math here: [link]

Absent wire, there's no self organization or disorganization inherent in magnet dust. There has to be a magnetic field for the dust to organize. Aluminum isn't magnetic.

As for the "black" of the dust that could be a few nanometers thick, like a condensate on "normal" dust. Reflection is only skin deep Smile

Back to outgassing, here's a study on the different optical properties of various silicones and what they do when they outgas and coat something. 5 space qualified types. if you look at the spectra, you see that all of them would "darken". Unfortunately, they only collected data in the UV range.

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA296935

I tried to get some Oppy blueprints to see what else is near the "stain" that could outgas, but the prints are super secret. Best I could find is some construction photos and all they show is frame and solar cells.

also for reference, here's a discussion of historical outgasing problems on real craft, and an analysis of what was whippin' around

http://space.unibe.ch/fileadmin/images/rosina/News/outgassing_press.pdf

Sorry dx, I do due diligence for a living so I get kinda wordy.

dx


Posts: 1661

Reply: 385



PostPosted: September 17, 2011 6:09 PM 

glenn>>>

That's a wonderful come back to my 383, albeit dangerously weak at that and you state nothing of the unusual. I don't appreciate others comments on the subject matter just because they have net link...I don't go there. I am an independent thinker and need no one else's thoughts... I put them outside of MY BOX and think for myself. Too bad there is a myriad of ordinary folks like yourself who think they have something to offer from a net link.

I am an individual thinker...please remember that!

yt
dx

Ben


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Reply: 386



PostPosted: September 18, 2011 12:13 AM 

There must have been wear on the rovers moving parts wich would have produced small particles (soot?)or metal or who knows what else that could have wound up on the deck.

I am with DX and think this is movement of this material or similar, by mechanical processes (vibration-tilt-etc.).

I would wager that a poll of Rover staff would show 99% in agreement.

dx


Posts: 1661

Reply: 387



PostPosted: September 18, 2011 2:01 AM 

Ben>>>

Yes, a mechanical process of movement. If there was a 25mm vertical edge to Oppy's deck and this material or substance started to 'crawl' up the face for us to see it move, then we would have a 'live' material to discuss.
However, Oppy has the dial plate attached to the deck and no such movement up the plate side and onto the plate top surface is noticed. This is meaningful in itself, indicating a flat surface we see now has a mechanical movement of particulate roaming at will from Oppy's movements over the Martian surface.
But why this spot on the deck is a bothersome Q at the moment, and I'll give it more thought as time passes, but I'm leaning towards a warped deck scenario that would contain particulate until it 'over-spilled' due to over abundance. We see that in horton's pic with the substance moving to the rear of the dial plate.

Come on glenn>>>why is the substance located in this particular spot on the deck?

yt
dx

Barsoomer


Posts: 344

Reply: 388



PostPosted: September 18, 2011 2:09 AM 

> I would wager that a poll of Rover staff would show 99% in agreement.

The rover staff that have been asked have said it is a cleaning, which I think indicates they have not given it more than a cursory glance.

glenn


Posts: xxx

Reply: 389



PostPosted: September 18, 2011 6:56 AM 

dx, barsoomer, physics isn't decided by elections. Smile

Whatever the "stain" is, it's not going to change it's properties based on survey results.

dx, as for clear thinking, clear thinkers have no need to be insulting. I don't mind being wrong, but I do mind debating with "independent thinkers". As for being an ordinary folk, click that link by my name. As you can see, I've spent the last 30 odd years mopping floors at my local detox center.

As for mechanical, absolutely there is something mechanical because physical properties are changing in time and space. The options seem to boil down to:
1. biological growth & death
2. some kind of wetting process which implies a leaking fluid with surface tension
3. some kind of localized vibratory process where that spot is rather strange acoustically (see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wio728lLOh0)
4. some kind of gaseous deposition (i.e. my outgassing hypothesis)
5. other

Frankly I don't know, but it does have some interesting dynamic properties for sure.

Serpens


Posts: xxx

Reply: 390



PostPosted: September 18, 2011 7:07 AM 

Barsoomer. Jim Bell who was the guru of all things pancam indicated that it had the same response as clean deck. Probably wind and vortexing driven micro-cleaning. Your implication that they didn't have a good look at this is, shall we say, misguided. Don't you think it time to let this thread slip into oblivion?

Barsoomer


Posts: 344

Reply: 391



PostPosted: September 18, 2011 1:49 PM 

Serpens, do you honestly think a cleaning of the deck is the correct explanation for the stain? I think that explanation is misguided. Since I very much applaud the intellect and skills of the MER team, I can only conclude they did not really consider this of interest.

However, our intellectual and recreational interests are not necessarily the same as those of the MER team. I hope this thread will persist as we follow the future exploits of "The Stain"!

dx


Posts: 1661

Reply: 392



PostPosted: September 18, 2011 7:00 PM 

Barsoomer>>>

You grasp at straws and make any situation more complicated than it really is.

Please refrain from an over unexcited state of mind for the rest of us are trying to think it out!!!

Other than that your posts are a welcome sight, thanks.

yt
dx


Kye Goodwin


Posts: 1166

Reply: 393



PostPosted: September 18, 2011 7:05 PM 

The most interesting thing about the Stain is that it has spread. I don't expect anyone to challenge the statement that the Stain has spread. Maybe it is "only" a tendency-to-be-cleaned-by-wind, but still it is mysterious that the "tendency" has grown to affect larger areas of deck over time by incrementally spreading to adjacent areas. Wind might explain the cleaning itself, but not so easily the change of state of the deck, which seems to be permanent. That is, areas darkened once have darkened again, some now multiple times. The record for the greatest contiguous area of darkened deck showing in a single image continues to increase from time to time.

I take the Stain's spread as evidence that there are non-aeolian processes at work at Meridiani, even on the rover deck.

dx


Posts: 1661

Reply: 394



PostPosted: September 18, 2011 7:05 PM 

glenn>>>

With all due respect to your intellectualism of thought, do not group me me with the obvious, for I am beyond them and your links.

Please find an answer to my Q, if you dare!

yt
dx

dx


Posts: 1661

Reply: 395



PostPosted: September 18, 2011 7:06 PM 

horton>>>

Give me clarity in here.

yt
dx

dx


Posts: 1661

Reply: 396



PostPosted: September 18, 2011 7:11 PM 

...anyone with depth perception and a sophisticated mind can see that there is NO STAIN associated with the movement of these granules of black magnetic soot!

What is with those that want to know the truth of simple mechanics of magnetized soil...go back to grade 5-FFS.

yt
dx


dz


Posts: 1661

Reply: 397



PostPosted: September 18, 2011 7:15 PM 

Serpens>>>

I agree with your 390, thank you.
It ain't that complicated of a mess.

yt
dx

Serpens


Posts: xxx

Reply: 398



PostPosted: September 18, 2011 9:15 PM 

Barsoomer, dx et al. This is not a stain. Look up the definition of that noun.

Then take a look at the sub frames for pancam sol 2718 (or any other for that matter). The reflectance of the 'stain' varies with the filter used as does the cleaned area on the gnomon. Now take a look at one of the very early (on landing) images of the sundial and see what a clean deck looks like. This part of the deck is reasonably cluttered and channelling and vortexing of wind with changes in the rover orientation would seem a pretty reasonable explanation.

Not magnetic dust. The magnets have not accumulated that much material and there is no clumping or distribution along lines of force (not that any exist). Not some kind of biological entity that crawls around a specific area of the deck. Not some unexplained and mysterious non aeolian influence.

Barsoomer


Posts: 344

Reply: 399



PostPosted: September 19, 2011 12:37 AM 

Serpens, yes, I have looked at early images of the clean deck, and, as I recall, the clean deck looked darker in L7 than in L2. The reverse is generally true of the stain.

But this is all beside the point. As Ben suggested, it should now be apparent to most observers that dark material of some kind is being moved around. As Psych pointed out, the recent movements are consistent with the recent motion of the rover.

Serpens


Posts: xxx

Reply: 400



PostPosted: September 19, 2011 2:28 AM 

Barsoomer. Yes. Realignment to the wind. The small tilt could not move dust or other material around. Sigh. Anyway that is my take and unless someopne can come up with a logical and self consistent contrary explanation, to my mind cleaning it is.

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