The Stain - Page 19

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hortonheardawho


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PostPosted: September 7, 2011 1:55 PM 

The change occurred between sol 2707 10:17 and sol 2708 12:41 - maybe during the sol 2707 drive?

Kye Goodwin


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PostPosted: September 7, 2011 3:13 PM 

Thanks Horton for your animation of recent changes to the stain (357). Yes, the stain has appeared in new areas along the edge of the deck, beyond the sundial base. There was a much smaller area darkened beyond the sundial very early in the record of the stain.

Looking at the whole history, I'm speculating that what "spreads" from one area of deck to adjacent areas is the tendency to darken. This permanent change sometimes shows as a dark deck or has sometimes been temporarily reversed by dust deposition. I predict that these newly darkened areas will lighten, but reappear as dark areas again in future sols.

glenn


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PostPosted: September 7, 2011 3:25 PM 

OK, here's a hypothesis re: the stain.

The marsdial color bands appear to be made of silicone with an embedded pigment. The one of particular interest I think was the green.
reference: [link]

Silicone out-gasses. Not lots, but it does to the degree that it is specifically avoided in proximity to CCDs in satellites for fear of clouding the CCD.

Now this isn't quite a vacuum but you would expect different out-gassing rates with different additives, so maybe the green pigment permits more out-gassing. AND, some of the out-gassing products are oils. AND, maybe the green breaks down into dark goo as it out-gasses.

So, I propose that the stain is nothing more than out-gassing by product of the green color calibration target.

Let the debate begin. Smile

Barsoomer


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PostPosted: September 7, 2011 3:27 PM 

I'm pretty convinced at this point that some actual dark material is moving around. The movement seems to occur in discrete jumps or "lurches." I am skeptical that a "tendency" could propagate so rapidly.

It would be interesting to know if the 2707 drive was backwards or forwards, and uphill or downhill.

By the way, I think this is the first time we have seen the stain peeking out at the right side of the sundial platform, near the magnetic trap. The stain material may have been present all the time in the hidden area behind the sundial platform, and this most recent motion, perhaps a "jerk" of some kind, has moved it into view.

Barsoomer


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PostPosted: September 7, 2011 3:36 PM 

Glenn, under your hypothesis, wouldn't we expect to have seen a similar stain on the Spirit rover? Also sticky goo should not vacate areas of the deck so cleanly as the stain moves around.

glenn


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PostPosted: September 7, 2011 4:20 PM 

Barsoomer, assume that there is out-gassing.

The material that evaporates would expand away from the source. There are winds, perhaps prevailing winds, which would direct it in not quite random ways, at different temperatures. If it's an oil or fluid, and I'm staring at a table of 12 different out-gassing components, the oil when it hits a surface would change the reflective property of the surface, and it may be mildly adhesive for dust, and for small particles would change their optical properties as well.

More to the point, the out-gassed components would continue to out-gas and dissipate over time, i.e. vanish over time.

As the silicone degrades it would out-gas at different rates (you never get a perfectly uniform mixture).

As for the differences between rover images.

Spirit landed about 10 degrees further south than Opportunity, both at approximately the same elevation (air pressure. Spirit may have been a tad colder on the average, probably not enough to retard the out-gassing, but possible.

I'm not convinced Spirit didn't show the same thing, Sol 701 image seems to show a not as dramatic but darkish smudge adjacent to the green.

In any event, I doubt if the mixing of the silicone with pigment was identical for both targets... The original reluctance spectra were slightly different for both, so the composition was slightly different for each. see: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDAQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmarswatch.astro.cornell.edu%2FBell_Pancam_JGR.pdf&ei=ls5nTtn5FeWusQKg9cGBDg&usg=AFQjCNF3CZGBC7sYCb9rwwISv7KFjaVCLg&sig2=dQkqj2No3B2hdaqxYvLhLQ

Anyway I call it an oil slick, at least today. Smile

dx


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PostPosted: September 7, 2011 4:47 PM 

glenn>>>

read my 304

yt
dx

glenn


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PostPosted: September 7, 2011 4:58 PM 

dx I read your 304. I don't buy magnetic dust. Here's why:

Horton's animated gif suggests a deposition structure not consistent with any physical structure of the surface or below. If there were (and probably are) magnetic properties in the surface, (and where there's solar power running through wires, you'll get a magnetic field), they would tend to be regular and clear and distinct.

Just to keep the debate alive, pop a hunk of glass into your freezer for a few minutes, then pull it out and gently blow on it, watching the patterns form as your breath condenses.

This looks like a turbulent gas flow to me, albeit very very very very slow.

So, today at least, I vote for out-gassing oils from the green target. First oil-slick on mars. Smile

Psych Author Profile Page



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PostPosted: September 8, 2011 1:34 PM 

It has been 'out-gassing since the exit from Victoria. IMHO the green chip would be severely degraded by now if it were loosing oils to 'out-gassing'. Besides, these materials were very rigorously tested in vacuum chamber freezers and exposed to the radiations and extremes expected to be encountered on Mars. Sure, it was only supposed to last 90 days but, it appears the rovers were built a bit over-engineered.

dx


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PostPosted: September 9, 2011 8:10 AM 

glenn>>>

Since there are no live organics of any sort or type on Mars the only true active material will be that which has a mechanical movement attached to it which would lead to a fine black powdery dust and definitely not to an 'oil slick' on the deck of Oppy.

Study horton's .gif images a bit deeper. You will see movement of dust but not 'fluid' movement. You will see black particulate waxing and waning without residue or stain remnants left behind, which would certainly mean a 'liquid' of sorts is not present.

The magnetic black particulate I mention is over and above any miniscule magnetism generated through a wire by a solar panel. And as noticed no such attraction on the wires has taken place. The black soot is unmistakably gathered away from the wires spreading its thickness when thickest-more than likely from Oppy's disjointed rollings over the surface.

This is clearly very fine black matter or substance from the surface or atmosphere of Mars that has assembled in this particular point on Oppy's deck...now what attracts it to remain here waxing and waning for us to puzzle over is another issue...can you solve that issue?

yt
dx


glenn


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PostPosted: September 9, 2011 3:01 PM 

wellllll.....

I wrote to the guy who developed the color chips to get his opinion.

His reply:

I very much doubt that this is silicon outgassing. The material is designed for extremely low outgassing, space qualified, and extensively tested. If the material was going to outgas it would have happened long before 800 sols. The other factor is that all the color and shade chips are made out of the same silicon material. Apparently no stains have developed on them. I think you need to look for another cause.

Ben


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PostPosted: September 9, 2011 9:26 PM 

Barsoomer; I don't recall where you have stood in the past but , give you an A today for some mobile material (dust maybe) Wink

Barsoomer


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PostPosted: September 9, 2011 11:00 PM 

Hi Ben, whatever the dark material might be, it is not dust. We have seen that the wind does not move it in the way that it moves the reddish dust. Instead its movements seem more correlated with the motion of the rover. (This could be confirmed by taking routine images of the area before and after every drive.)

It does not adhere to the reddish dust. Rather, they seems to stay separate like oil and water. Before the latest episode, the stain seemed to show remarkable cohesion with sharp boundaries. In some ways, it seemed to have fluid-like properties.

I would guess that it involves particles larger than dust, perhaps sand-sized, and maybe the particles have a spherical shape to facilitate motion.

If the expansion to the right of the sundial platform approaches the magnetic trap, we might find out how magnetic the stuff is.

Barsoomer


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PostPosted: September 9, 2011 11:09 PM 

One more thing: after being covered by freshly blown reddish dust, the stain material seems to fairly quickly rise to the top again (also analogous to oil and water).

dx


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PostPosted: September 10, 2011 12:24 AM 

glenn>>>

Since there are no live organics of any sort or type on Mars the only true active material will be that which has a mechanical movement attached to it which would lead to a fine black powdery dust and definitely not to an 'oil slick' on the deck of Oppy.

Study horton's .gif images a bit deeper. You will see movement of dust but not 'fluid' movement. You will see black particulate waxing and waning without residue or stain remnants left behind, which would certainly mean a 'liquid' of sorts is not present.

The magnetic black particulate I mention is over and above any miniscule magnetism generated through a wire by a solar panel. And as noticed no such attraction on the wires has taken place. The black soot is unmistakably gathered away from the wires spreading its thickness when thickest-more than likely from Oppy's disjointed rollings over the surface.

This is clearly very fine black matter or substance from the surface or atmosphere of Mars that has assembled in this particular point on Oppy's deck...now what attracts it to remain here waxing and waning for us to puzzle over is another issue...can you solve that issue?

yt
dx

dx


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PostPosted: September 10, 2011 4:56 PM 

Test
Yt
dx

Psych Author Profile Page



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PostPosted: September 12, 2011 10:19 AM 

Something that might explain the obvious changes in the 'stain' The current position of Opportunity as illustrated by MMB shows the rover to be sitting on a slope 'Tail Down'.
This image shows Opportunity at the Sol 2710 position from the Sol 2703-07 position. On Sol 2708, the day the stain changed, Opportunity turned and drove a short distance uphill towards 'Chester Lake'.

http://members.cox.net/msl_explorer/OpportunitySol2703-2707_1.png

Psych Author Profile Page



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PostPosted: September 12, 2011 4:16 PM 

There is a post before this one stuck in spam filter limbo that links to an image of the rovers current attitude, the rear of the rover is pointing down hill quite a bit.

Barsoomer


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PostPosted: September 12, 2011 11:54 PM 

Thanks Psych, that explains a lot.

Psych Author Profile Page



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PostPosted: September 14, 2011 9:35 AM 

Don't free that former post, I'll try something different. Smile

members.cox.net/msl_explorer/OpportunitySol2703-2707_1.png

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