On the Road Again - volume 5 - Page 23

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Author Message
LWS


Posts: 3062

Reply: 441



PostPosted: March 4, 2010 12:00 PM 

MPJ; just 2 more news stories from 2002 that, reading between the lines, suggest that the time was not right for a mars-life study by serious scientists. It is probably still not right. The NASA and other scientists will surely take to heart how the mars stories unfolded by this twice bitten scientist

http://www.spacetoday.net/Summary/817

here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/apr/06/world.physicalsciences

and here

Winston

hortonheardawho


Posts: 3465

Reply: 442



PostPosted: March 4, 2010 12:43 PM 

This animation demonstrates that the dark area is not simply a cleaned area of the deck. The dark area also drapes over the corner of a solar cell.

I processed the sol 2161 to highlight features in the dark area. These seems to be variation in the brightness and color. Oh to have the 12 bit data...

I believe that the rock guys can not explain this feature.

LWS


Posts: 3062

Reply: 443



PostPosted: March 4, 2010 1:27 PM 

Hort; Good image gif.

I can't explain it either but I can point to several areas on the soil that resemble it including on the exploratorium images released last night and one of which I posted last night.

Now, this may not be scientific but I think it is possible that the blue spots on the ground and your growing deck spot above might be related.

Winston

Mizar


Posts: 692

Reply: 444



PostPosted: March 4, 2010 2:14 PM 

Re441: If this theory evolves, and further verified with a great plausibility, the "blue forum" has a serious problem! Laughing Great find LWS.

Kye Goodwin


Posts: 1166

Reply: 445



PostPosted: March 4, 2010 3:49 PM 

Horton, Thanks for the animation linked in your 442. Yes, it is hard to imagine how this growing area of color could be nothing but a passive dust process, but there really aren't any other candidates in the mainstream. Maybe frost could add a little complexity to this system but I don't see how it could explain the localization any better than dust deposition or erosion. Seeing the color spreading to more than one material, deck and solar cell, might tell us something. Apparently the process "sees" deck and solar cell as the same "substrate", but that doesn't lead me anywhere except to think that the color might be more "superficial" somehow.

I'm wary that this will turn out to have a boring explanation that just isn't on our list for consideration. Barring that I'm with LWS (443). The surface of the soil at Meridiani has lots of patches of different color despite the plausible homogenizing effects of dust. I guess we have been assuming that these soil surface varigations are all the result of simple passive aeolian processes, but maybe these processes are more complex. Maybe some types of dust patch naturally "spread" by "reproducing" more of the same specialized type of dust surface at their edges. Some components of the general global dust would be selected and concentrated by these "discriminating" "sticky" patches.

Barsoomer


Posts: 344

Reply: 446



PostPosted: March 4, 2010 3:59 PM 

Horton, with respect to your #442, I think it would be interesting to see the intermediate stages of development of the stain. Did you you say the expansion occurred in discrete jumps? Or was it more or less continuous?

Barsoomer


Posts: 344

Reply: 447



PostPosted: March 4, 2010 4:17 PM 

Another right eye for this significant area.

hortonheardawho


Posts: 3465

Reply: 448



PostPosted: March 4, 2010 4:18 PM 

Bill, do you beleive that there is "nothing to explain" in reply 442 and reply 294?

If not, why do you resort to sarcasm and name calling when I make a simple observation and draw a simple inference based on my limited understanding of the "standard model" of present day Mars?

I would be quite happy if you or any other person - kook or not - proposes a plausible explanation for this tiny puzzle.

LWS


Posts: 3062

Reply: 449



PostPosted: March 4, 2010 6:44 PM 

Bill; And while you are at it, explain in geology terms these "anomalies" found on the magnet and the calibration target of Oppy around sols 1217 and 647 respectively.

http://lws.smugmug.com/Other/Martian-Lifeforms/1M236222650EFF85R9P2976M2M1/172376459_Egpry-X3.gif

Like Hort's advancing spot above these features were imaged, no explanations were given by the team, and oppy moved on.

Winston

LWS


Posts: 3062

Reply: 450



PostPosted: March 4, 2010 6:58 PM 

The gif animation in my reply 451 is what I really wanted some explanation for. It possibly illustrates on a micro level what is seen on the Pancams of the spot on the instrument deck.

Bill; I had'nt seen your 450 above when I posted my 451. But this should be easier on your analytical skills. Please let us know how the inferences in your reply #445 match my "example" in any way.

Winston

LWS


Posts: 3062

Reply: 451



PostPosted: March 4, 2010 7:59 PM 

Kye; Here's another image (sol 2142) of some rocks and soil surface at concepcion showing the bluish discoloured areas around some rocks but especially evident around the dark rotten rocks.

I especially like your statement in #446 above "The surface of the soil at Meridiani has lots of patches of different color despite the plausible homogenizing effects of dust".

That has been my concern about the colours around the rocks for sometime now but I have not been able to put it as elegantly as you have.

Winston

Barsoomer


Posts: 344

Reply: 452



PostPosted: March 4, 2010 10:36 PM 

Near bottom right: rock with unusual streamlined shape and apparent bilateral symmetry.

LWS


Posts: 3062

Reply: 453



PostPosted: March 4, 2010 10:44 PM 

Hort; Re. your 442 above. The shape of the advancing front suggests movement of a liquid being absorbed onto the dust covering the instrument deck of the rover, somewhat along the lines of liquid moving along a paper "towel" in paper chromatography.

There are several examples of such movement in the rover tracks as a bluish "stain" appears in the track and dissipates in the direction of the rover movement. I've posted a number of these pictures previously. The appearance of the pictures scream liquid.

Bill Harris; Re your 454; There is no need to invoke a conspiracy. All it takes is to have people in charge with a mindset like yours that can't even comprehend that there might be other explanations out there than the geology textbook ones and who just ignore anything that does'nt fit their views or ridicule persons who contest those views as Kooks or Culinary. Fortunately history is replete with examples of such all knowing people, from as far back as the Spanish inquisition, eventually being proven wrong. And, after all it is a geology mission looking for ancient water. Why should they take time out to examine any frivolous phenomenon that has no geological importance.

Hort again; I think you must have seen Barsoomer's find on a paper that came out yesterday showing that Ice can stay on the surface for some months after a small impact similar to the concepcion one. That makes your comments about the bio communities in deep sea trenches and their rapid flourishing after changes in their environment even more apposite to what might have happened at Concepcion to produce the "dark rinds".

Did you notice that there are a few images where a white "dust" can be seen enveloping rocks and other parts of the landscape but seemingly avoiding the middle of the crater? I thought it was dust, but could it be some form of ice particles that we are seeing? The apparent aversion for settling in the centre of the crater was indeed striking in the few images with this feature.

Winston

Barsoomer


Posts: 344

Reply: 454



PostPosted: March 4, 2010 11:19 PM 

Near top right, a striking rock that really draws the eye.

Kye Goodwin


Posts: 1166

Reply: 455



PostPosted: March 5, 2010 12:09 AM 

I really like this little "stain" beside the sundial. It will probably turn out to be something mundane but it has sure got me intrigued until that becomes clear.

Barsoomer, re your 447, and Horton, Yes it would be great to see a properly registered animation over the entire period from sol 2024 to the present. I've had a look at the record which is fairly easy because there are lots of sundial images and the "stain" shows in all the filtered versions. I find it kind of disappointing that the changes do not seem to be gradual. The color first becomes obvious over the course of sol 2024:

The next big change I could find was between sols 2038 and 2042:

The color extends further presently than the 2042 coverage so there have been at least three episodes of change. The sudden changes maybe don't fit very well with this being a self-reinforcing native Martian process. This makes me even more suspicious that there is a trivial explanation, but I can't see it. Whatever has changed it has happened at least 3 times in the same way.

Is the sundial perhaps slightly above the deck and has a space under it where dark dust could accumulate, which could then subsequently slide out during rover movements? It is a big stretch but we're grasping at straws here,

Serpens


Posts: 169

Reply: 456



PostPosted: March 5, 2010 12:12 AM 

Winston. The image at 451 shows a slice of magnetite rich rock used as an external backup reference for the Mossbauer. Exactly what anomalies are you referring to? Surely not the veining.

Hortonheardawho. Your image processing skills are legendary. So why do you present apples and oranges comparisons? Using the same filters and saturation for an animated comparison could reveal something. 442 as it stands does not.

Ouch Winston. Talk about glass houses and stones. On one hand there is a plethora of comprehensive, self consistent and peer reviewed anaysis and on the other hand there are your unsubstantiated statements and implied conspiracy theories. (Well implied conspiracy or incompetence from JPL). Confused

Barsoomer


Posts: 344

Reply: 457



PostPosted: March 5, 2010 12:40 AM 

In Horton's final image, there are four spots that are the same color as the stain but are not contiguous with it and some are on the slightly elevated section near the stain. I think this makes the #458 explanation of dust sliding out unlikely.

The sudden jumps in the extent of the stain do not rule out a biological process. The increase might be mediated by the presence of some resource that is intermittently available.

In any event it is worth continuing to monitor this. The future evolution of the stain may give further clues as to its nature.

Kye Goodwin


Posts: 1166

Reply: 458



PostPosted: March 5, 2010 2:35 AM 

OK, Hold on, here is an image from sol 1804 that shows a clear dark feature in that same area but smaller than the dark patch that appears on sol 2024:

There are lots of images from later sols that don't show this feature so I guess the phenomenon is more complicated than simple growth. Maybe there is something present which we can see at times and we can't see at other times but which is growing in extent over time. Maybe there is a sticky patch that can catch dust, hold it for a while, and then release it to make room for more fresh dust to settle. Sounds like a good way to gather the raw materials for life on a planet where dust is the main action.

LWS


Posts: 3062

Reply: 459



PostPosted: March 5, 2010 8:53 AM 

Serpens; At last you seem willing to extract one of my data points and discuss it while ignoring the others. Yes, that first image is of the Moessbauer calibration target. But I am not referring to the veins in the magnetic target themselves but to what appears to be in them. I know you don't do micro examination of images, but get a digital or other magnifier and look at the veins in the area where i've highlighted and is already magnified by 2, look at the conformation of what is inside those veins. If you can show that the calibration target left Earth with the veins looking like that I will be delighted to concede that very minor point.

But that was not my main point in the post. I was trying to point out the gif animation below it, where some enigmatic spots appeared on the magnet and expanded from one picture to the other and, obliquely, making the suggestion that hort's expanding spot and the small spots on the magnet as picked up on the MI might be related.

And no. I am in on way suggesting that there was some kind of conspiracy in the team not following up on these micro matters as; 1. Examining such matters was not the objective of the mission. 2. Their expertise does not deal with such matters. 3. If they even attempted to look at such matters they could well lose their jobs. 4. They don't have the slightest clue of what might be responsible for it. 5. It would be better to ignore it completely.

There is no conspiracy. But, I think it is a shame that an expensive project that could add to our knowledge of Mars at the micro level and thereby offer explanations of what occurs at the macro level seems committed to only follow the ancient water and the chemistry of the rocks. Thats all.

I am certain that you realise that there are several instances where comprehensive, self consistent peer reviewed analysis turned out to be totally wrong. The McLennan dogmas may have a lot of truth to them but they are not sancrosanct as you seem to think. My apparently scattershot unsubstantiated statements are not designed to pose a challenge to the mainstream but merely to demonstrate in fairly well documented images that there could be alternative explanations to those deriving from the current paradigm using an alternative standpoint and analysis that takes as its primary starting point that life is currently modifying the micro lanscape of meridiani in ways that the mainstream choose to ignore. My contributions on this board may appear scattershot because that's life and the influence of life on the environment on Mars, if it is there, is likely to be everywhere.

I've tried to answer your concerns in depth why don't you try to continue to reciprocate and address my examples individually and not just invoke the all-encompassing authority of the NASA/JPL model?

Winston

LWS


Posts: 3062

Reply: 460



PostPosted: March 5, 2010 9:00 AM 

Kye; Re your reply #461. It might be interesting to see if any cleaning events occured in the interim periods. If my working hypothesis has any validity then it is the dust on the instrument deck that is the medium for the expansion of the spot. Cleaning events may remove some of the dust but leave small amounts of the agent that moves and as dust builds back up again it can continue its movement.

Winston

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