Mars trees NOT! - Page 2

Ben, your re20: not likely but not impossible i guess - i wonder how much thermal energy those pitch black stuff can accumulate when the sun is shining there and what (chemical?) reactions could start...

Ben; Re. your #20; It was you who indicated that Mar's surface has many similarities to Earth's. I totally agree.

A number of orbiters have indicated that there is significant H20 just beneath the surface on Mars. But it also seems perfectly clear from the Phoenix observations, that the current and past lander instruments cannot identify water even when its there. We don't know everything there is to know about the geology or climate of Mars. We have absolutely no direct knowledge about what has happened on the surface of Mars in the recent past. We infer ages of objects and surfaces on Mars to frequency of meteor craters, often ignoring the fact that meteor strikes are still occuring today.

In the face of all this, how can we dogmatically claim that water cannot be involved in some of the surface features we see today and claim everything we see is as a result of dust movements?

None of us know for certain and until we do, some speculation must be in order.

Winston

Winston; Again I fall back to our earth as a known.
I am sure there is liquid water at some depth on Mars but I liken the situation to the Antarctic where the ground is permanently frozen to as much as 200 m.
Due to these conditions I know of no places on land there,where ground water is escaping to the surface.
Even in the deeper craters on Mars the ground must be frozen back from the crater walls an equal distance.

If one goes back to the wet period when Mars had surface water I am confident ground water escaped to the surface as it does in temperate climates on earth today.

It is just hard for me to invision these old Mars seeps still being visible after billions of years

I am not citing this as an example but have you ever driven thu a road cut that has friable coal or shale "lenses' exposed in the walls.

When dry ,the material disintergrates and flows down the walls forming pond like features( until the next big rain)

The big question is what this dark material is on Mars and how old is it..

Ben as you put up the Antarctica analogy, which is a realy good one, i think of the ice free areas there called Oasis'. The Schirmacher Oasis comes to my mind which is ice-free and even sports fresh water lakes in thoes frosty conditions there. Could there be such places on Mars as well?
The dark material is very interesting ideed

Perhaps I can request some critique on these closer views of the topic JP2 northern ice cap scarp which seem to show classic Spider formation aspects along the steep slope. Intriguing to me is the exfoliation association in the vertically aligned dual Spider 'M' type formations which seems to be the source of much of the dark streaking materials along the scarp layers. Channels and recesses are seen below the formations, allowing any solids or timed liquids to be transported as active particulates or semi-solids downward by gravity, and as I noticed, also upwards in smaller particle sizes as some of the 'wind tails' are showing upslope, therefore warm ascending, or contrary to gravity flows of wind patterns part or full time.
I can see probable crystalline and molecular ordered superstructures in association with the classic formations of Mars South polar Spider and dark fan formation type structures.
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Additions or contradictions?
A few gullies which are caused by an occasional rock and a strong forward arching extension, in addition to the recess type exfoliation removal channels. Are the channels jointing, faulting, crystalline weaknesses only, or, are they the product of material transport?
Image details in the file names, or available by request. PSP_007962_2635-RED, IR/near IR.
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One additional image on the next entry.

I can see positive relief semi-solids accumulated on erosional gullies which have a defined location and cause, with the solids appearing rather periodic and perhaps an 'out-of-season' content distant to the actions of channel production. Both positive and negative relief processes combined over time.

Are the exfoliating formations the actual cause of the dark material separating and occurring in transport?
Is any of this actually a CO2 process, or merely a seasonal action, repeated at times, in concordance with the release of CO2 gases? Surely CO2 does not determinate the entire process?

The additional image I promised . This shows the single pair Spider aspect formation with the dual dark streaks, and a rather bright accumulation of snow/ice which is brighter in the central descending dune-like fan assembly near the bottom of the scarp.
I will produce a few additional closeups.
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Can others see these images in sufficient detail?

One of the images showed a bright layer with a fracture pattern, partly buried in medium toned materials. Across that dark cover material was a shallow rock origin channel, with a formation sum greater in the past.
Is the entire assembled ice cap a record of greater volume, or additional materials still being removed, or, are we seeing a seasonal repetitious process with newly reforming dark source materials carrying an amount of ice as 'protection' and fuel baggage?

The basic circular formations are common across Mars, seen here as extensions of the scarp face layers. As these are between the dual exfoliating formations, and are present as strong obstructions in the Ius Chasma and other troughs which are volcanic or related to volcanic/water transport, can these be ice or ice aided 'stability' structures, matching the Spider small circular formation aspects?
Some appear to be exhumed crater type objects, but without perfect exposures, can we estimate the ice or silica content of these, and assume a smaller system similar to the various troughs of non-polar locations embedded in the lower unit? There are larger troughs in some locations of the polar scarp exposure margin.

Ben; Where I differ is that, although I totally agree that Mars resembles Earth in many ways related to its surface geology, etc., I think that its current circumstances, as inferred from the findings of the numerous missions there, ensures that there must be some important ways in which it has to be different that could impinge on the ability of water to break through the surface and flow down crater sides in very quick events leaving temporary stains that don't betray to our imperfect instruments the evanescent recent presence of water.

I think we cannot explain everything on Mars in terms of our Earth knowledge, which you appear to be doing. I think that there are several things on Mars which are now unexplainable if we use an Earth model only but that will become clear in the fullness of time.

I totally agree with you that the spiders and apparent surface flows could not have lasted unscathed from a putative wet age billions of years ago. But the NASA pics have shown clearly that several are very recent occurences. Therefore the age of the flows is not in question. What is, is what constitutes those flows? Water, dust, etc. Extrapolating from Earth's current situation and our necessarily imperfect knowledge of Mar's current situation it is reasonable to infer that most likely dust and not water might be the culprit but not that water cannot, under any circumstances, be responsible in some way. That's playing God, the all knowing.

If there is water underground, why is'nt it possible for some to come to the surface through cracks or explosively when triggered by some unknown environmental circumstance? How can we be certain that there are not some very ephemeral situations where triple phase conditions are just right for water to last for a very short time? Do we know everything there is to know about tectonics on Mars? Do we know everything there is to know about what is there and what is happening below the surface of Mars?

Winston

Dana&Winston

Dana's recent images suggest the area is made up most entirely of ice and the dark layers with lateral extent may be periodic basaltic ash deposits intercalated in the ice.

Where unconsolidated, the ash layers are discontinuous and occur as isolated blobs which represents remnants of the ash layers left by subsequent periods of wind erosion.

Incisement of these layers by some means has exposed scarps where the unconsolidated ash is now cascading down the slope and as Dana points out, the fine fraction is blowing upslope.

Until I see something markedly different I reckon I will continue to see Mars as a very stable, earthlike body that, except for volcanic activity, is devoid of Earth's complex tectonic history.

Ben,
There is the deep trench in the transition zone which is now deeply buried under new material. As it shows large circular crater type features it indicates the planet was very active in both differential depth production and infilling which hid the real Mars of the distant past.
Don't have an image prepared for the statement, just thought to respond. More tomorrow for me.

Skip to the images if you prefer.

Ben, in the image at reply 26, the example of several flows both bright and dark are seen side by side, but encased within a molecular or formation superstructure, as yet to be determined as either a singular formation constructed item, or, a set of several physical process environments operating side by side independently as differing speeds effects. Basically the ice cap layers are either ordered(and organized as large structures, and able to function as large units, or, they are chaotic happenstance mix, occurring as a series of unordered separate environments, leaving a scarp in an interaction of the exterior and the generalized interior of massive numbers of small unmatched zones of relative adjustments. I can see evidence of both ordering and non-repetitive apparent disorder. Does the ice cap consist of ordered activity which is repetition, as in the exfoliating scarp zones moving a finer 'grade' of dark material in larger volume, giving a movement preferential in the dark zones, and allowing for a linear transport of material off the facing scarp, volume less detectable than with the brighter materials? This is my question from the prior entries which I hinted at.
The brighter deposits seem to 'slide' and move down-slope in the image at #26, accumulating along only the gravity and 'gully' trough transport suspension paths. The measure of outward movement seems relatively fast in comparison to the more elevated higher scarp exposures of streaking. The view of the streaking appears less recorded as bright debris flow along the taller scarp exposures, either differing there, or, less recorded and less measured. Troughs are common as both small gully removal actions at some spots, and the entire scarp system seems to have a larger and stable lower elevation trough system, which may be either an ordered movement system, or, an older system still actively in motion as dark scarp streaking exposures not currently carrying the dark material any substantial distance, therefore not a dark material transporter but an aspect of a system that records dark streak exposures, with some method of the dark streaking being present as appearing to be in motion from the interior. Possibly the dark streaking is opportunistic and has association with the channels based upon long term geologic motions, IE., faulting, and the myriad of angled and curvilinear scarp fractures exposed? Is the dark material a record of the more rapid movement zones, with the bright material less transient, stable, and more prone to reincorporation, either as ice, or as a mixture of basic layered materials which cannot be released into the environment upon scarp exposure? Seeing red across Mars may be directly related to dark streaking releases, and may become 'redder' when not associated with the layered materials?
I'll show the right side of the ice layers better next, and show the accumulation of mass as a record. As the spot is the layered surface current common surface level beyond the scarp, the record may be related to the incidence angle of the scarp and the topmost layers of bright ice, but my suggestions about all else could still be accurate aside from the buildup of bright material at this one locale.

No requirement that you make a response currently, just issuing a few thoughts about relative horizontal transport of materials out of the layered deposits.

Dark materials commonly exist at fractures and faulting, on Mars. We often refer to some of this as 'recent' base rock exposure. This would indicate a timing matter, or a mixture difference as in the ash streaking mixture lenses and lobed exposures you described. I was describing a speed of transport difference, with less recorded dark material at the transport lanes, or. secondarily, a movement record of more recent movement of material along- layers, or faulting, possibly exfoliating trough type paths similar to glaciation motions.
I was hinting at a dark material path of ordered formations, and dark material transport along accessibility routes most conducive in what we see as possible transport lanes. An orderly seasonal record, with an all season movement added.
Are there any studies of the ice layered deposits dark streaking being seasonal in locations as in the dark fan exposures?
Stratification as ponded exposures of the darker materials seems to happen at this source image location, but is the exposure a seasonal process here rather than a geological exposure of dark versus bright ice material surface cover? Some images of this area 'near scarp 'dunes' appear more volcanic texturally and structurally, and active currently.

You seem to be suggesting a cross-cut exposure of a past active structure, with ice cover at the upper unit of a fairly simple erosion scene?
I'll make a few examples, showing my suggestions of dark transport or dark material actions along the scarp components.
I can sense you are suggesting some residual activity along the exposures of deeper structural components not seen. Residual hydrogen sulphide or liquids along deeper paths, possibly? Other materials released from erosion or active paths?

I am suggesting active seasonal replenishment and reconversion of the dark materials along the layers, and incidentally the faulting and fissures, as well as the 'Spider' structures, producing a dark material in transience, with little long term record.
We are perhaps not far apart in concepts, but I see unrecorded action, with a well ordered structure to the large mass of Mars materials giving a cyclic rebuilding of the apparent surface of the polar ices and even the Lowlands.
If the current activity is a cyclic stacking record, we would not see the tectonics except as stacked deep units, and volcanic activity. If a lesser fraction of H2O and other ices were available planet-wide, we would be looking at the result of that lesser fraction. We might also be observing an active surface of cyclic stacking dominating the possibility of rock masses in tectonics activity, therefore, a record of a competitive process which is currently active. I see that in the images of the dunes closeup in MI's. Is the planet built upon geological surface buildup which is currently active? Do the polar and Lowlands reveal a new level of activity in the process which is qualifying as active currently, therefore a variety of active planetary morphology of the upper surface which can be distinctly dominating?
A few closeups of the flows below the scarp, at 2x and 4x, mostly. One is at 1 to 2 size in an overview of the active interaction of the nearby dunes and the bright flows which show minor dark material surface activity.
Could we assume that Mars may have developed a type of ice interaction where available, which has given a character to the geology, and may as yet be rather interactive? As liquids are not the norm in our viewpoint, the solid ices and the residual liquids possible on Mars may be interactive, with components which provide a seasonal basis for energy interaction?

Sure wish we could finish the job of mapping Mars, with an additional MRO/HiRISE type camera and instrument system.

The HiWISH program of requests for additional HiRISE targets is underway. Will we find the circumpolar realm to be valuable in further mapping, and possible anaglyph 3D colored detailed images for resolving the ambiguities?
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The 1 to 2 overview at the dunes margin.
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Is there a size limitation to the active ordered items we find?
Who's hosting the next step?

Image source credits: NASA/JPL/University of Arizona

I'll assemble an anigif of the development and growth or alteration process.
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I'll comment later. Time and icing over problem here. Sleet and ice, snow later.
Why the patterned fractures, polygons, Spiders, dark streaking, all related by ordered formation propensities?
Must be at least crystallinity, or more.

Think of these Spiders, fans, and dark streaks as items, populations, or landscape feature types as objects of 3D character with depth, vast volume of effective domain, and the ability to be altered or alter the local domain.

The items in this video link are a recent popular news release item of similar scale and have the potential also to effect a landslide process over time. The entry to this cave has altered the climate locally for the objects, and the eventual by-product is a falling object here and there, with debris and some change at points of view. The overall process is not the product of the landslides. The other orientation is necessary. The altered landscape is a product of the active features, which are at times altered by wind and gravity.
A cave of large objects which I used to dig from lakebeds and under the Earths surface. I dug these in sizes that fit in a human hand, only a few ever larger than that size scale. Here in the video the size of growths are the size of apartments to houses, and the collection is contained in a volume the size of a small commercial building. The key to viewing this is the climate of the growth environment which was very warm, and sealed from the surface conditions. Upon exposure to the surface conditions, the collection is now decaying, and altering, eventually to be a collection of fallen landslide debris piles.
The active aspects of these growths are displayed in the satellite images as in varied terrain type materials and conditions. The landslides are very real, but only a small aspect of the functional process being viewed, and possibly a view of the loss of functional activity, or a view of the aspect of the cyclic activity which is potentially viewable from space at great distance.
A scene from a climate not normal at the Earth's surface.(video)

I'll work on the images and return to comment shortly.
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Lots of snow and ice here, where few ice storms occur yearly. As the ice storm dropped inches of transparent ice on the rocks and ground, my local rock garden 'spheroid colony growth' of an 1/8" tall perrenial plant colony, which is a 'saprophyte' and 'epiphyte' type, came alive with bushy green coloration, extended the stamin-like water collecting apparatus, and went to work on the solid covering of sub-freezing ice, drawing liquid water from solid ice at about 0* to 20* F as a substitute for the routine of collecting the water from the air as gaseous vapor and dew droplets carried by the air. This is the rapid infusion of nutrients and water for this colony of perrenials, and they have survived sub-zero blizzards for weeks this way, as active and living psychrophiles, or objects which have a preference for cold and icy climates. These also live without ground embedded roots, and draw material for replenishment from the air or across the air spaces from the ground around themselves.
I mention this last subject here as these are the type of items which are most active and well suited for the intermediary environments more similar to Mars than the Earths common averaged conditions. I'll try to image them in green bushy expression and present the pictures on another marsroverblog topic, so you can see that some Earth plants prefer the very cold, and live without the benefit of liquid state water at least part time. They do however, need to retain the moisture, and Mars currently could not sustain them, I believe. Possibly at an early period on Mars conditions could have sustained them in partial aspects, or complete funtioning. The cold of the far north polar Mars climate would be too cold for them probably. If the ice were present in the equitorial region or near that latitude, they might survive with added air pressure. Normally Earth plants also require a source of minor oxygen content as well for night-time functioning when photosynthesis is not functioning in lighted conditions. Another plant type would develop on Mars suited to the conditions there, were conditions somewhat differing from the current standards.

Dana;

I can tell from the content of your posts that you have an enquiring mind and are very incisive in your thoughts , however it appears you tend to put them down as you process them without the benefit of editing.

One of the most valuable courses I ever took involved examing the thoughts and comments in technical documents of several hundred words and and then condensing them into as brief a statement as we could yet maintaing the concept. We judged each other so it got fairly intense at times.

My suggestion is that you write your post out beforehand then make a concerted effort to clarify,and condense the thoughts into as brief a space as possible before you submit it.

Quite correct, if the intent is to lecture a finished product. A good criticism, and one as I've mentioned before that I was accustomed to performing prior to writing on this blog online the past few years. As I had little to write prior, my thoughts were well distilled prior to any writing.
I intended to write here about items not well identified, not easy to view in a busy context as new terrain, and not a subject ever viewed by publicly acknowledged persons prior to this satellite.
Therefore, I can only excuse my meanderings as less than finished, less than a lecture as writing, not the firm truth, nor even the acknowledged truth as yet.
The pictures are intended to side-step that confusion, so please deal with the aspect you can take time for, and over time my repetitious observations will distill themselves, in sum of many comments. Only seldom do I change my observations, however.
Here is a anigif of two small variations of the dark shadow details of a 'pit/fissure' or 'pit/wrinkle' of the many variation examples of these Spider/dark fan type assemblies in the topic source image.
The are between the northern layered ice and solids scarp, the NPLD, and the dunes shows these items as common but varied in appearance. These are not simply sublimation, wind byproduct, gravity sliding,settling and separating materials, nor is this much differing from the southern polar layered deposits region display of Spider/fan process, and related items.

Location, x=56675 , y-34050 , DR ~200 to 600, an IR image sensor image which is the most detailed of the several band ranges, and a nearly flat surface slope. No landslide occurred here, and no amount of ice or dust will show this pattern inherently on Earth, therefore also not on Mars.
This is an elaborate molecular superstructure assembly of well ordered content with other samples to view nearby.
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Size is 4x, 4 to 1, and a context larger image will be provided giving the brighter textural terrain details related to these items.
I find these image 'stems' on each, greatly varied in absolute size, but carefully related to each total pattern size. Some are erect or free standing, some are embedded or a surface shaded shallow elevation feature. One per each total formation assembly.
Can any geological Earth type formation provide these detailed patterns? Has any ever been found on Earth? Is this a 'natural geological formation?
Does this require a new method of nomenclature for Mars items with variety of pattern types?

Ben. I may start a practice of separating my text passages from the images nearly entirely, and have made some effort at that. I have to listen to myself 24/7, and it can be a real bore, I admit. Thanks for the reminder.
Any thoughts to offer about the unusual terrain repeats? The shape actually seems to be related to the wind shadow side of the local Barchan dune shapes, and may give rise to the dune shaping? I give an example of that.
My professional prescription: look at the pictures, and enjoy the culling of detailed items. Respond first, then read the pages of my wonderment after responding.

Dana,
http://english.pravda.ru/photo/report/trees-4985