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MPJ


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PostPosted: June 7, 2009 5:56 AM 

Dana, your idea of impact processes involved in spider evolution is quite interesting. I could imagine small meteorites impacting and penetrating the surface translucent layer of CO2 ice would cause violent venting of pressurized sublimated CO2 beneath the top layer. The meteorites would bring or cause alot of loose material to bee spitted out by this new formed vent. As the top surface will still be cold enough to refreeze CO2, it may accumulate around the vent (including dirt and other materials) and grow to mounded features...

Regarding our visual senses: I strongly hope for high quality real color imaging science experiments for the next MRO type orbiters Very Happy
just have a look at the new released "HOME" movie and enjoy the "power" of real color high resolution "birds eye" observation of geologic and biologic features (on earth)!
Watch in HD and fullscreen

Dana Author Profile Page



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PostPosted: June 7, 2009 2:47 PM 

As we know the polar realms alter impact craters actively, filling, or resurfacing with various features the former depressed craters, and, in some not producing a crater at all, but a new terrain marker where a crater would be expected. When studying these spiders it's the first possible source cause I look to, and I am surprised to find that the spiders are a presence controlled by the spider formation, and interaction between spiders seems to indicate domains as limits rather often, with some crossing others in some locations, and dome interacting to a mutual altered combined effect in a few.
I know some impacts will be present during the season of active fans, but the numbers of very fresh impacts should be very small. I hope to find a recent, fresh small crater to view the immediacy effects, and study the 'sanitizing influence of the altered materials.
The ices upon impacts may combine readily, giving a higher capacity to the impact sites for later out-gassing in the following season. I am fairly sure we could see a difference in a 1-2 year old crater event in the spider/fan terrain regions.
Reduced or oxidized metals, higher acidity, or other changes in basic chemistry and water balance may be the more dominant of the effects we see.
With the newer U.S. 2010 budget compacted as it is now, we will have to make a strong case for any new or changed mission plans, I believe. It would seem to me a bargain to prepare well for all Mars work by becoming thorough in the present mission coverage of mapping in detail.
I'll watch you link, I saw the news line on it today.
I am working on images of the spider core ices issuing from the spiders central mount or vent, in some showing a liquid flow, but I have several subjects to work on other topics as well. Maybe later today for a few images I have your recommended JP2 examples downloaded.

MPJ


Posts: 250

Reply: 23



PostPosted: June 9, 2009 4:40 AM 

Here is another report about dark dune spots (DDS) from a hungarian/german team of researchers (including Prof. Neukum) from 2007. They used visual and other data, including temperature observations from MGS and MEX to interpret the evolution of this features. Interestingly they too suggesting liquids to be involved!

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2007/pdf/1864.pdf

Dana Author Profile Page



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PostPosted: June 10, 2009 3:45 PM 

A quick display of four examples of a very ordered set of processes in these, and I'll return to describe this better later.
This is the ESP_011711_0930 JP2 as yet, at the upper right corner of the image for the final image, and upper right of the central portion of the image for the first three closeups.
The first three are at 400%, or 4 to 1 size,
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The overview at 2 to 1 size, for the upper right corner, where action and wind are more ordered. Is the display based upon the orderliness of the environment, or more generally the orderliness of the process, with a strong influence of wind and terrain? I'll have study the sun angles and terrain elevation for this section of the main image.
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MPJ. I have downloaded the movie for viewing as it was 'choppy' on my connection. My sound is out for now, so I'll be viewing it on another machine, and commenting..

Do you believe the general processes we see on Mars in this are active on Earth currently? A general process specifically seen as a polar Mars distribution of ice and erosion? I see very clearly matched alcove/gully formation patterns on Mars, and possibly Earth as well.
..........

Notice for anyone using Facebook sign-in, with Google Chrome browser- the attempts to sign-in after writing an entry, and doing spell checks, has resulted in blanking of the entry text, so beware, and report in to Google about the Chrome 'bug' if that is what the problem is.

MPJ


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Reply: 25



PostPosted: June 11, 2009 8:10 AM 

Dana, i dont think there are similar processes like the seasonal melting of the CO2/Water icecaps at the martian southpole on earth on the large scale. Allthough seasonal melting processes on our poles are quite impressing and increasingly alarming as well - yet totaly different as there is no CO2 sublimation and those no pressurized venting from beneath (AFAIK).
The "HOME" movie presenting some realy nice and interesting polar and siberian permafrost observations as well btw
Note a small meltwater-"river" go underground on some spot of the glacier/ice-slab - that somewhow reminded me of my waterfall like appearance in Marwth Vallis with the "dino-baby" structure nearby Smile

MPJ


Posts: 250

Reply: 26



PostPosted: June 11, 2009 11:21 AM 

Todays HiRISE releases including some very interesting observations regarding the martian south pole like this:

Fans and Seasonal Polygonal Features (ESP_011792_0980)

I think they targeted the beginning defrosting edge so we have some interesting stuff there Smile

This crop from the still frozen icy plain maybe a later "vent" candiate - is it impact related or something else?

its located at the lower end of the RGB jp2 data at 100% zoom (inset 400%), auto "DRAed" with +40 added to lower end synthetic blue value.
The direct boundary of beginning defrosting is especialy interesting as well with some mound like features with fans already visible...

Dana Author Profile Page



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Reply: 27



PostPosted: June 11, 2009 9:21 PM 

Thanks for the location information on the reply #26 entry notice. I will follow that and study the newest releases. I cannot begin to keep up with the amount of detail in the releases in total, so I will always be following your entries to find the better examples of these interesting vents.
As we see a series of variations for these in each large main JP2 HiRISE/MRO image, I accumulate the samples to compare all, giving a better sum and a series of various alternative appearances.

Actually I can't give a defense of the surmise that the Earth has similar geologic formations to these patterns carried in the formation of gullies and ravines, but experience tells me that the similar process shapes and patterns are real. It will be a long term subject for our debate about the possibility that Mars has a unique geology due to the climate and general chemistry conditions.

This is a sample of one of the various vents from the same source image, ESP_011711_0930.
This is the IR(infra-red) image in B&W.
The location is x=17600 , y=38850 .
The size is set to 400%, or 4 to 1.
After periods of looking at the various venting processes, the non-distinct vents, those with no characteristic rings, point sources, and elevated buildup of the margins of the material producing the darkness, becomes the routine. It is easy to loose sight of the core process in looking at the geological overlying formations.
This brings the focus back to a physical process of immediacy and force in action.
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The first is a cropping of the second selected area, as you can see. The cone is very distinct and well shaped. This example reminds me of the various small cone/vents at the Phoenix lander location, which originate uphill from the lander, and which would have drained downhill into the wash-out just a few tens of feet from the Phoenix spacecraft.
The question is, was the vent collection at Phoenix, the same process, and was there a liquid component of some chemistry in the venting process.
Near the Phoenix is a passage of the channel I am referencing, and there is also a collapse,chaotic terrain set of features, with a distinct angular and directional vent issuing from the ground, viewable in the GigaPan image available online.
I'll find the link for the image, and make an image for you to see later.

I honestly believe this process is not unique to Mars polar region, over time, and may be a general geologic phenomenon across Mars. Materials vented may be differing, however, and I may be corrected eventually. I can see similarities to the content of the Chryse region we discussed in related topics recently.
...........
Great scenery in the 'Home' movie, but I need to transfer it to a machine with sound access.

Dana Author Profile Page



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PostPosted: June 11, 2009 11:21 PM 

Concerning your entry of #26, I have this link for persons following the subject images. This has about seven other date and season variations of the same general area, with fans and polygon combinations, displayed in interesting various appearances.
A few additional images are from the same geographic area covering other terrain type information.
I am collecting the images for comparison at various seasonal periods.
Hoping an anaglyph may result from a couple of these, but there is a great variation in brightness, and lighting for most.

MPJ


Posts: 250

Reply: 29



PostPosted: June 12, 2009 6:10 AM 

There is another very interesting observation from yesterdays releases:

Of Polar Pits and Gullies

While the HiRISE team focusing on the gullies at the slope (which are quite interesting) i took a closer look at the dune(???) feature at the bottom of this pit - this maybe a very good example of the so called dark dune spots feature (DDS) which i provided a link in re23.
Note the dark mounded(?) round features across this dunes melting(?) frost layer. Each of this round features got a bright spot in its center which is kind of interesting.
I realy have no clue whats going on here Very Happy

crop is at 50% zoom from the RED jp2 data:

Is this dune heating up inside and venting out excessive melted material from within?

Dana Author Profile Page



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PostPosted: June 12, 2009 1:55 PM 

If we consider the simple hand warmer pouches sold commercially as a few basic chemicals set in action by the disparate addition of a liquid solvent, and catalyzing, or issuing exothermic balance for our benefit, it may be easy to consider the very 'dry' Iced Mars dunes and polar layers as waiting for a little transient liquid to transform the mix to a heated product even in 0* temperatures both on Mars and on Earth.

Here is a view of part of the upper right corner of the original, ESP_011711_0930.
The first is with the 'ignore DR value box unchecked, the second with the box checked.
Clearly a movement of material appears to happen, and the deep erosion has been severe, even for a Earth water deposit, the cold should have prevented this scene from solid flow motion, and no liquids would be expected in each example.
The slope appears to be bottom to top of the image frame. A secondary slope may be present as well in this image area.
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DR 0.1, Size 1 to 1. Auto color balance setting. IRB JP2 image.
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Can the marked spot be as appears, a elevated thin rod rising into the Martian sky? A shadow is cast from it. Many rods like this in the dark zones of perrenial growth? Annual growths? Lots of erosion for a year of a gas eruption.

Dana Author Profile Page



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PostPosted: June 12, 2009 2:21 PM 

Looks like it is only an extension of the fracture in darker contrast terms, possibly. I have seen many small short extensions of rod-like shapes in the chaotic erosion mix in these. This was a 'dud'. perhaps. The gullies do look much like temperate zone(mid-latitude) zones, however, and that may reflect the presence of iced particles, or a passing through the liquid phase in transition. Loss of bulk and subsidence?
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MPJ


Posts: 250

Reply: 32



PostPosted: June 12, 2009 4:55 PM 

Good images Dana. I think the IRB composites yield a sligthly better visual quality than the RGB's - if only the colors would be more near the real thing.
I spend this evening zooming around the martian south pole with GE5 and got to the conclusion that we need another phoenix type lander and/or even a balloon type probe to uncover the secrets there. So much unusual terrain and structures which are seasonal changing. I fully understand the scientists conducting large scale time lapse observation campaigns Smile

Dana Author Profile Page



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PostPosted: June 13, 2009 9:59 AM 

This material looks to be a very old and the recent dark fan constructions combined. That would make it an active venting process, on a very inactive appearing planet. I am hoping some method of climate and seasonal watching can continue for several seasons to catch the source of the dark fans, and to give a perspective of the possible current active volcanism. Can a set of dark streaks and fans be a deep structural response to climate?
Are the dark fans a non-ice related process?
Is the polar region responsive to active ice additions with a chemistry/climate eruption pattern?
Much of this looks to be more than ice sublimation.
Contradicting that set of statements, the polar dunes are following the pattern, and are actively involved as you showed, with a specific active deep process in the dunes as well, matching this process in the solid layered terrain. Can both terrains be a same process as appears, and is it really CO2 controlled
Again more questions than answers for now..

I can't do better than the IRB color three band images, for details, as the IR grey scale images are less defining of the ice presence.

The ordered circles, pits with solid flow, downslope 'steps' across the layered terrain, and the fact that nearly all features in these images appear to be related to the dark fan streaks, either currently, or over time, gives me a pause to reflect and reconsider what is at work.

Dana Author Profile Page



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PostPosted: June 14, 2009 8:55 AM 

No samples of the bright streaking here to present, in combination with the dark streaking fans. I found this reference for the bright aspect fans and thought it would clear a misconseption that develops concerning the bright ice frost.
I had read somewhere an assessment of the bright aspects of these as indicating possible water frost forming from the exhalation product, or, from the local atmosphere as a wind chill by-product of suspended humid water gas content settling in response to the cold CO2 gas exhalation.
I now find this reference to the actual measured content.

"Bright streaks in this image are fresh frost. The CRISM team has identified the composition of these streaks to be carbon dioxide."
From the introduction page for PSP_003113_0940, HiRISE site.

This may be the actual chemistry in full, but I suspect we are missing minor content to some degree. The CO2 is actively darkening the fan area, and lightening it, and we do not see that all over Mars.
Link above to PSP_003113_0940, is similar in location to the images I was presenting.

A link to a HiRISE search around the South Polar fans and part of the Cryptic Terrain area. Covers many images which are actively issuing dark fans. Everyone should try these images with the several free viewers available online. There are even red/blue anaglyphs available in this area for great geological study of the formations resulting when the fans are active.

Did Earth become conditioned during the first two billion years by this process, in colder periods, and can this be very different than standard volcanic processes?

Will a core drill sample of the South polar ice ever be recovered and measured directly? What a feat of tecjnology that would be. CRISM can perform some of that work, in broad patches.
The terrain is conditioned by this process. Did the terrain build from this activity, or was this a continuation of a prior formative period?

Dana Author Profile Page



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PostPosted: June 14, 2009 8:57 AM 

No samples of the bright streaking here to present, in combination with the dark streaking fans. I found this reference for the bright aspect fans and thought it would clear a misconception that develops concerning the bright ice frost.
I had read somewhere an assessment of the bright aspects of these as indicating possible water frost forming from the exhalation product, or, from the local atmosphere as a wind chill by-product of suspended humid water gas content settling in response to the cold CO2 gas exhalation.
I now find this reference to the actual measured content.

"Bright streaks in this image are fresh frost. The CRISM team has identified the composition of these streaks to be carbon dioxide."
From the introduction page for PSP_003113_0940, HiRISE site.

This may be the actual chemistry in full, but I suspect we are missing minor content to some degree. The CO2 is actively darkening the fan area, and lightening it, and we do not see that all over Mars.
Link above to PSP_003113_0940, is similar in location to the images I was presenting.

A link to a HiRISE search around the South Polar fans and part of the Cryptic Terrain area. Covers many images which are actively issuing dark fans. Everyone should try these images with the several free viewers available online. There are even red/blue anaglyphs available in this area for great geological study of the formations resulting when the fans are active.

Did Earth become conditioned during the first two billion years by this process, in colder periods, and can this be very different than standard volcanic processes?

Will a core drill sample of the South polar ice ever be recovered and measured directly? What a feat of technology that would be. CRISM can perform some of that work, in broad patches.
The terrain is conditioned by this process. Did the terrain build from this activity, or was this a continuation of a prior formative period?

Dana Author Profile Page



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PostPosted: June 24, 2009 2:20 PM 

While we are looking in the polar regions at very cold temperatures generally, and the results we are interpreting fall within the realm of the reasonably expected for the scene of water permafrost, and cyclic CO2 ices in seasonal variation, the geologic effects or precursor activity in the fans and spiders indicate the long term actions may be of varied temperature, or source materials, as the large scale organized by-products are well ordered, and indicate a massive structuring process is underway in the ice caps, and at locations beyond the ice caps where similar actions may have been underway at past times. We can see the ordering of materials. Often the ice caps show faulting and morphology ordering over time in patterns of fault type actions, easily seen for example in the 'avalanche' areas of the ice cap scarps in the news last year.
Here is a 'Image-of-the-day', showing the San Andreas fault of the U.S. California area on Earth, and while we can know some of the differences in the Plate Tectonic action seen here in the link, the actual effect at the surface on Mars in the polar regoin of icy conditions, gives a similar effect of linear movents in the vrtical direction, but much lessor in the horizontal direction.
The severe layering we see on Mars has given an enhanced strength to the Martian horizontal directional toughness, and left us with an enhanced vertical motion potential displayed as faulting with little horizontal offsetting, except in the areas where thin semi-fluidized layered deposits are seen with local horizontal offset movements.
This fault is a classic of the Earth type plate tectonic movement processes, and seeing this today in the releases, gave me a pause to reflect on the depth of the Mars horizontal motions recorded. The image shows how liquids play an active role in the Earth processes, giving an aquifer of drinking water a place to find confinement, within the erosion accelerated zone of movement.
We see the dark water lying on the fault structure, in the IR enhanced image, and it gives me a signal as to why we see a set of dark streaking drainage zones along the strong layered bedding of the very differing Mars geological structures.
If you have an opportunity to see the San Fransisco Bay are sometime, and study this fault across the state of California, try going to the 'drive through' dirt road accessing this reseviour, and look along the waterway, to see the very mechanically straight linear slopes of this water lake shape. This is one of the few geological items I have seen which gives me a pause to compare Earth and Mars in large scale formation processes. You can see for many miles along a shoreline as straight as a machine can manufacture it, and the fault finally becomes more impressive than the trees and underbrush.
In small scale faulting on Mars, and possible similar deeper faulting movements or rifting activities, the altered conditions of the faults can be seen as local producers of dark streaking and 'avalanche' type repetitious movements, which are actually more horizontal than vertical. We see the streaking when the conditions are set for vertical displays, as the actions are more rapid at those points.

[link]

The San Andreas fault as Image-of-the-day, linked to a view of only about ten miles of hundreds in length for the moving fault. This shows how water, or ice, would dominate a fault on Earth.
Are the fans on Mars showing an action as vast as this, along horizontal processes on Mars? Are some of the fans designating vertical movement weaknesses of former or current movement of materials in geological structures ?
I get an impression in spots such as the cryptic area, of a hidden former magma chamber of CO2 ice, pumping a small volume each season to the surface, with the supply running along horizontal weaknesses preferentially. Not to be claiming any actual evidence of that viewed in the spot photos of seasonal activity. Just a thought in the imagination realm. Electro-potential differentials could be equally effective in ordering the displays perhaps.

Dana Author Profile Page



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PostPosted: June 25, 2009 4:08 PM 

The new release, ESP_012506_0850, from the HiRISE site, has interesting patterned mounded eruption shapes, much the same as the others across Mars polar regions. The classic semi-circular shape, '-C', appearing as a symbol of the mythical Phoenix in shape, is a standard in many of the dark spot defrosting streaks in this image. Here is an example, from location x=14440, y=8140.
This is viewed in IR only, with the second in s color tinted lightened three color combination. The core is showing a radial fan near the 'neck' shape of the bird shape, and much of the formerly dark area has apparently lightened to the background color and tones.
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The stable shapes and patterns are telling a story of well ordered processes, with repeated effects.

MPJ


Posts: 250

Reply: 38



PostPosted: June 30, 2009 4:34 PM 

Dana, this should be interesting for you as you suggested some similarities of polar terrain and mid latitudes terrain:

Landforms Indicate "Recent" Warm Weather on Mars

This article also supports my theory of freezing and thawing permafrost related observations in Mawrth Vallis Smile

Dana Author Profile Page



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PostPosted: July 1, 2009 2:17 PM 

Here also, is a release of a series of suggestions by various researchers that the rates of nuclear decay have a seasonal variation with a change in the interactions of separate chemistries by season, not explained by current particle physics very adequately, and possibly being more effective on Mars at the polar regions than the simple temperature swings alone. Any added effects could be very significant if the process is inorganic as it appears. Although the suggestion was not directed at sublimed CO2 ice, if the addition of particle effects are seen as seasonal on Earth, without explanation as yet pinned to a fixed cause, possible this effect can be seen more broadly effective in a location where liquid water is not applicable and marginal phase transitions are tilted to a avalanche condition of active initiation?
A New Scientist article, on a seasonal effect in radioactive decay rates appearing in varied materials. Current article issue, 2009. 3 pages in length.

[link] ?page=1

The ground around these vents has become very specifically altered over time, in a massive display of alteration, and construction, and removal. Currently the process is seasonal in view.

MPJ


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PostPosted: July 2, 2009 8:49 AM 

Interesting thought but needs further investigation (complex new instrumentation of mars observers) to apply to Mars seasonal processes. Current science theory of subsurface pressure buildups resulting in more or less violent venting with affects to surface morphology as observed seems to be quite stable i think. Yet i wont rule out biology totaly at this point - not on the large scale as of trees and stuff like that but in regards to heat buildup etc. Is CO2 ice realy that transparent especialy in regards to infrared part of sunlight to explain the fast buildup of heat beneath the ice. Also wouldnt there be a top layer of (thin) water ice/frost above the groundlevel as it obviously would freeze more soon than CO2(by standard theory) isolating the CO2 ice from warming surfaces?
I think there are quite some things to sort regarding the polar observations! Smile

Todays HiRISE release includes a nice south polar observation again: Faulting in South Polar Layered Deposits (ESP_012538_1070)

My special interest here is a part of almost ice free surface with grey/blue knobby or small mound like features and a raised reddish part of the surface:

50% zoom

Remnants of spider like formations?

400% zoom

Sub surface channeling?
The bright ~100cmx25cm straight rod like feature is a jpg artefact most propably Very Happy

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