Spiders_ and_Fans

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Dana Johnson







PostPosted: June 1, 2009 7:53 AM 

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A first look at the ESP_011341_0980 HiRISE image is memorable, with details so repeated and regular as to motivate me to post a topic about the most unique of Mars landform features.
Will we be defining these as other than terrain, climatic, and geological upon close evaluation?
In this image, these all have core structuring, patterned orderliness, and, the largest have transparent surface shapes which prevent the fans from depositing material in sharply defined areas.
Clearly these structures dominate the scene below the surface as well.

Dana Johnson


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PostPosted: June 1, 2009 10:03 AM 

This image is a reversal of tones and a desaturated color adjusted image extracted from the topic image. I tried to allow the small wind conditioned straight line dune ripples which exist right at the cores of each or these large and small 'spider' structures, to be seen and give some perspective as to how little is actually present in the scene.
We are told by most all that the area is buried deep in CO2 ice, with water ice involved as well. The fans clearly are issuing almost exclusively from the 'arms' of the structures, with some having small ovoid flat 'slab' shapes at the source of the fan, and most having no discernible source surface apparent pattern or vent.
In the foreground is a rounded dome, with a central apex pit. No fan and no spider 'arms' in that isolated case. Right of center, with the smooth texture of the dome distinct from the surrounding smaller 'spiders. Most all the spiders have a core pit, flat top, or similar construction at the core.
The main dark fan area, here bright, shows the small linear wind conditioned ripples at the fan sources in a few. Notice there is no other dunes or ripples across the entire image except right at the core structures of the spiders. Clearly some of the 'spiders' are former dunes.
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This is an adjacent area, showing the entire larger spider in the prior photos. Marked are the lobes of ice present, limited to exhalation from the core vents, or other local cause underground. Only a very thin amount of ice could be present beyond the visible small sections which have become existent by issuing from the core structures.
Clearly in this area, the fans do not originate from the venting through thick fractured ice sheets, the ice does not pervade the scene with a general cover, and the ices are a product, not a source of the 'spiders'.
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Can someone venture an explanation for the 'Spider' dominate scene?
Can all spiders be operational in this degree of local dominion?
Is ice a by-product of the spider structure?
Is sublimation actually dominant here, or is this a matter of subsurface 'breathing'?.

Dana Johnson


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PostPosted: June 1, 2009 12:44 PM 

Several subsurface vents are visible in this highly altered version of a 200% sized view of the small spider and the area between the two large spider structures. That spot is at the top of the last image in reply #1, right of center.
The small spider core shows a very non-rigid shape in the solids, which may be either plastic or periodically 'wetter' than the neighboring domain of veinlets or 'arms'.
The appearance may show a 'hoarfrost type ice plasticity which responds to the fluctuating daily and seasonal temperatures with a reforming of the water ice sub-type. CO2 is active in the area as gas and ice, would it be the primary modeling force?
Several subsurface dark fan sources also seem to have rounded partly buried boulders or meteorites at the fan source,
Ambient heat transfer, or chemistry might explain some of the dark fans where objects of greater mass may be at differentiated temperatures from the ground and surface, but the number of candidates and unusual shapes which could be a cause of fans, appears to be not activating fans in more than half the number of items visible. A few fans are clearly active below the surface in just this first closeup example I selected. I chose this spot as it was the first open image closeup that happened to be automatically present and viewable when I opened the image in the viewer. Chance has defeated the 'warm rock' concept, and shown that smaller spiders can have nearby powerful dark fans, while being a distinct active domain at close range to greater action.
Clearly the larger fanned spider has a history to the process, and the central peaked core structure is old or very actively building a mounded peak residual shape. The larger spiders are regenerating a process of subsurface activity which results in above surface core building, and diffusion of the 'arm' structure to a somewhat patterned exterior periphery.
Most of us have seen some of the images of transition spider types, which may show a evolving structural process over time.

I routinely freeze and thaw soda pop in large sealed containers, and I never recommend that to anyone else, as the process can be unstable. In a recent repeat of prior experiments, I thawed a nearly completely frozen 75% full bottle with a microwave source, and as usual, with less than a minute of high energy applied, I thawed it almost completely, a opened it to find no significant increased gas pressure. The energy, heat applied, and the activation of the mix, returned the CO2 forced gas back into the liquid suspension. At some low temperatures a soda bottle will vent gas continuously until most all the CO2 has been released. Apply a strong radiation or other energy source to thaw the mix, and the gases are reorganized into a liquid/ice mix. That doesn't apply to the Mars climate at the poles necessarily, but it is an interesting turn of events. No longer will a soda vent gas after being frozen, it also suffers no loss of the former mix characteristics. A daily freeze/thaw with a stable product of containerized conditions.
What is the process on Mars?
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Size 2 to 1, lightened and reduced in contrast, gamma raised. Lower left corner of ESP_011341_0980.
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Dana Johnson


Posts: 1195

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PostPosted: June 1, 2009 2:45 PM 

A 4 to 1 sized closeup of a part of the spider structure is rather pixelated, but very informative. This shows a section of one fan string along an extension of a branching 'arm'. The fans match these several objects which are insufficiently detailed to give an ID to. I see both are appearing shadowed similar to the crevice, but along the body shape 3D lines which make then stand out in 3D relief.
These objects appear on the left to be non-normal shapes for geology items, and on the right, a possible meteorite boulder draped in dust, soil, or soil/ice as possible. It is interesting that the sharp division in coloration and sensor responses has given this display of possible causes for dark fan streaks.
It may be that solid items do cause the fans in climate swings, or, it may be these are samples of a force to be discovered in later landings.
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A unaltered view at 4X, or 4 to 1 size.
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A altered view which is not a good image, but the best I can produce with the software used. I'll load this in another viewer to try a different approach.
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Can these be objects of geology, or are they really different than the smaller items we see in the MI from the rovers? Has anyone a better set of imaged details here?

I recommend you reduce the image frame size when viewing these- to about 70%- 50%, as the quality is poor as is. The object stand out in all sizes.

Dana Johnson


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PostPosted: June 1, 2009 3:10 PM 

This is an altered image, settings as above, with the pixels reduced in several compromising ways. It is easier to view, but not as accurate to the source JP2 image. Other spiders in this image must be exposing other items of interest.
I present more tomorrow.
Any opinions among readers?
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MPJ


Posts: 250

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PostPosted: June 1, 2009 4:03 PM 

Spiders and fans are very unique to mars as are most other seasonable processes there. Hard to explain with our earth based knowledge Smile
Allthough iam ok with the commonly accepted theory of heating underlying material which cause the sublimating subsurface CO2-ice to build up pressure resulting in geysers of CO2 gas mixed with dust as can be seen here:

(PSP_003614_0945)

I suspect especialy in regards to the spiders channeling systems to have liquid CO2 as carbon acid in action which could be possible as any water would be still ice and could not interfere with carbon acid causing it to sublimate.

from Wikipedia articel about carbon acid:

"It has long been recognized that it is impossible to obtain pure carbonic acid at room temperatures (about 20 °C or about 70 °F). However, in 1991 scientists at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center (USA) succeeded in making the first pure H2CO3 samples. They did so by exposing a frozen mixture of water and carbon dioxide to high-energy radiation, and then warming to remove the excess water. The carbonic acid that remained was characterized by infrared spectroscopy. The fact that the carbonic acid was prepared by irradiating a solid H2O + CO2 mixture has given rise to suggestions that H2CO3 might be found in outer space, where frozen ices of H2O and CO2 are common, as are cosmic rays and ultraviolet light, to help them react."

Ben Short


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PostPosted: June 2, 2009 12:20 PM 

MPJ; Any idea where the dust comes from and where does it go?

MPJ


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PostPosted: June 2, 2009 2:36 PM 

Ben, this document is quite interesting on this topic:

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/7thmars2007/pdf/3364.pdf

in regards to geyser: basicly it is assumed that pressurized gas (CO2) from subsurface on its way up carries the dust with it which is then picked up by the prevailing winds to form the observed surface features..at least thats what i got from reading about it until now Smile
Interestingly the fans and streaks of the area imaged in my Re5 pointing in different directions that it looks like there are different "prevailing wind directions" in this area (maybe due to surface topology?)

MPJ


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PostPosted: June 2, 2009 4:47 PM 

btw: my favourite defrosting observation is this from early 2009:

from HiRISE observation http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_003364_0945

Mars just likes to play our visual senses Very Happy

dana Johnson


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PostPosted: June 3, 2009 6:46 PM 

There is a problem in the images of fans and the spider structures. The dark 'dust' material fans have evidence of frost around some within the exhalation fans deposits, showing that ice will be opaque, and the fans as can be seen do not cross opaque surfaces of ice, they cross transparent small sections of a self cleaning material. The cleared areas of material do not show fan dark streaking,
The entire fan spider area is a differing substance, and does record the fan passage.

Dana Author Profile Page



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PostPosted: June 4, 2009 4:01 PM 

This is my concern, with the routine descriptions of a very Mars oriented process not seen on Earth, and not really comparable to any process we are familiar with here. This is a take from the PSP_11348_0950 HiRISE image, if my memory is correct. I'll get a link for the image. The image details are very differing in appearances as you switch sensor bands, and the image nearly blends to the background noise when using our standard HiRISE viewer r,g,b, color assembly in autobalance. We are not seeing with human eyesight, the actual physical processes which are recorded by mechanical sensors at other frequencies. We are not viewing the 'real' Mars in these images. Much is hidden from our visual perception, and, from the sensors, even the widely spread HiRISE camera system.
As you can see here, this is a spider location in a large scale eruption from the Martian surface, and it has the general characteristics of the conical cores of the routines spiders seen in the topic image. As we see so few of the well developed active spiders, we know very little about how to best watch the process, and to see in accuracy. I'll return tomorrow with a link for the main image, the color bands used here, and discussion of the multiple substances which are involved in the growth of these large non-Earthly objects.
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The visual sequence is the second view here. As some of the eruptions from these appear to be liquid, transparent, and not recorded in general, what are we looking at but not seeing in process complexity?
Are these the same on both polar regions, in addition?
Location, x=24000 , y=12175 .

dana Johnson


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PostPosted: June 4, 2009 10:48 PM 


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http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2008AGUFM.B53C0513S
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Vague connection to the CO2 ice activity in this, and no indication of any methane releases at the polar fan areas, but other connections point to CO2 gas/ice/water activity with acetates While sublimed gases may show the full process somehow, eventually, it remains difficult for me to assume that a construction of these objects can be the by-product of a simple gas release from an ice state. These also recharge yearly, apparently.

What can be seen in the area chemically, and what cannot, might be a good question for now.
MPJ's image of dark spot domains and orderly arrangements are intriguing. The larger spots tend to pair or triple as groups, rather than diffusing as a chemistry gas. It looks very liquid in action as a clumping, and arcing assembly.
Also the margins are dark, as in a meniscus of a liquid.

MPJ


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PostPosted: June 5, 2009 5:51 AM 

Dana, regarding your Re10 closeups: i been unable to find similar intriguing structures in other "starburst spider" HiRISE observations to present here (yet) - thatswhy i not published any own closeups for determining the process of buildup and decay of this martian features. The only things we know is that this process is strongly connected to the seasons which leads us to think it is some melting and freezing process while others also suggested it to be some biologic process like seasonal plant growth (which is more unlikely after the HiRISE closeup observations IMO).

I also suspect some kind of liquids involved here - carbonic acid? water later in the martian year (martian southpole can get quite warm during southern summer with temperatures above freezing point of water)?

Nevertheless it looks like a very dynamic process at the south pole (not so at the north pole which remains colder even in northern summer) - i realy would like to have video observations here

MPJ


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PostPosted: June 5, 2009 6:21 AM 

This is a very good summary from the 2007 HiRISE observation campaign of this features with drawings and short timed observation sequences (videos would still be better Smile )

http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/pdf/agu_press_conf_dec07.pdf

Maybe there is a new report on this topic for 200/2009 observation campaigns

Dana Johnson


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Reply: 14



PostPosted: June 5, 2009 3:48 PM 

Yes, the bio path of thought is a long stretch of road for most of us, however the lack of life on Earth is not conceivable currently, by our science and knowledge, and that is our ONLY science in the matter. We do have a unsuccessful record in viewing life from a distance thus far elsewhere, but as we all know, we haven't any explanation for defining the object we do not yet know. We simply must look accurately, and we shall find what is present eventually. I'll try to read the link, but I may have read it, I believe, as it is a press type presentation. The geyser concept is an old one from thirty years past, and it fits reasonably well in some aspects, but there is so very much more unseen on Mars than most understand. That is the reason I build these conversations without agreeing on much. We are in the 'whimsy' stage of science even now, with evidence like these images below.

I built these today from the IAS viewer, using bands and selective dynamic range(contrast) variations to show why we know so little of the total summation.
The fans and spiders are not visually seen much. We can see only a fraction of the structure and image even with the Infrared spectrum included in the images from MRO. This is why we have been perplexed and argued for five years about the MER rover results as well.
We can see below the visual first, at a regular contrast. It shows two waypoint numbered fan sources(pits) with a vestige of old fan issuance still visible. Even in that image you can see more is present than can be seen, and there is no reason to suspect any ordering or structure to the mayhem and chaos of the spider/fan/dark streaks on Mars.
We have argued the dark streaks are not real, only dust disrupted. That is simply not correct. The dark material is a transition phase material and is very real as a material. There is also a darkened solid mass at the left-most pit/fan source. It is not visually seen. In the second image other aspects are viewable. The second image is the Red spectrum range. The remaining photos are of the Infrared images at varied views in setting. They show the real Mars as we should see it, if we were really 'scientific' beings. We simply cannot see reality as humans with our eyesight limitations.
The color images at the end should be the three color, if my links are correctly assembled. There will be several postings at two linked images each, to accommodate the blog request for two maximum each post.

Can everyone see the very rigid geometric assemblies in the IR images? The pits appear solid but not in the visual range. The dark flow mass as semi-transparent is a liquid or semi-liquid at the source of the dark fan.
Bladed fingers issue from the pits as bright visual dune-like material.
This is definitely not a simple CO2 geysering system on Mars.
Also, you are correct in that the varied fans, streaks, pits, spiders, gridded runner assemblies, and more, are not explained by CO2 geysering.
We have a subject for the history books. And a mystery for ourselves currently.
Even the reticulated surface spiders are partly visible and partly not in human eyesight spectrum range.
The same is true for the MER rover MI's and that is where I found all the friction on the blog for five years. We see only a part of each image in any viewing.
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ESP_011711_0930. Recent release, just looked at a couple hundred square meters to find this as a first imaged view closeup.
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Red band below, visual blue-green above.
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IR images on another post with the color. They are striking in dissimilarity to what you see here.
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Some for tired eyes to read if it is new, but it is well read by many i am sure.

http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=3145&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0.

Dana Author Profile Page



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PostPosted: June 6, 2009 8:16 AM 

This observance of details about the various appearances of the 'spiders and fans' process may add to an understanding of the multiple ways the process is seen. There is a potential that this is not a polar process, but an aspect of a planet-wide phenomenon.
The image ESP_011711_0930 has this pair of dark streaking fan sources which define the non-human visual display of a scene which humans cannot see directly. The human eye cannot see the events directly.

The first image is strictly a blue-green surface view as we would be seeing the actual process on Mars.
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This is the view in the Red band sensors, a very different surface view of the process. This is the surface as the above image, but below is in the Red to near infrared range frequency.
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Below, is the real 'spiders and fans' appearance, now seen in the InfraRed frequency range sensors on the HiRISE camera. This is entirely dis-similar to the other imaging, and is the reason we are constantly having difficulty on Mars understanding features and processes underway there.
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I'll present additional images of this difference to prove there is a very different planet than appears to us in the polar region.

The fans, dark streaks, and spiders are npt what we see as humans. They are a non-visible active geology and more.

Dana Author Profile Page



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PostPosted: June 6, 2009 10:25 AM 

Here are a couple additional images of the Red sensor band only matching the prior reply #14 spots which appear in IR to be dark pits, or subsurface holes where a water(liquid) and a ice frost fringe are exiting upward into the air.
This shows that in the lower visual frequencies the items are apparently a mounded bright structure, not a dark hole, and they are issuing a liquid state of water or other IR absorbing liquid, which is falling around them as frost, or, the exiting is very cold liquid(possibly water) and the very cold ambient temperature is drawing frost to the surface as a bright ice residue. Most likely the exiting material has a liquid water state component, possibly 'wet dust', which is dropping as dust down-wind, and as frost around the periphery of the fan movement, without the dust mass attached to the ground cover of frost at the outer margins of the fan movement, and in the small amount of frost at the upwind margins of the spots.
This may sound confusing as I describe the process, but actual viewing of the originals at HiRISE as large JP2's will convince you over a period of time.
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Another view of the brightness of the Red band from the JP2 originals at 4x, or 400%, of the 1 to 1 size in the IAS viewer.
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I'll produce better IR views of this scene showing a dark apparent recess in the surface, with a textured dark pit showing. That view will be my next entry.

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PostPosted: June 6, 2009 12:46 PM 

One of the many suggestions that liquids can be present for periods of time during the spring-time transition climate of the polar regions on Mars.
If this is true in the polar regions, then the oscillations of the Mars rotational spin axis orientation can place the zones of liquids at varied locations over geological time, combining with the possible marginal liquid potential at the warmer equatorial zones.

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PostPosted: June 6, 2009 6:37 PM 

Can differences in local nickel-iron and other dense materials be a simple solution for dark spots? I've often discussed the possibility of former impacts as the cause of polar dune dark streak sources, but I nearly always find the distribution and the surface dark masses on the dune surfaces a solid reason to preclude the obvious and simplest possibility. Here the example dark spot and fan are a possible match to a former impact debris pair of objects, however as can be seen in the second image at greater scale, the pairing of rounded grey items is repeated in the third example dark streak/fan. The two pairs may preclude the ID of the sources as nickel/iron meteorite pieces, simply as too improbable a scene. More than one cause and process seems likely as MPJ was stating in a prior post.
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Items above in the upper right corner of the image below, with a second pair of rounded objects in the larger dark spot here, seen as the same color and tonality as the dark spot material. The central 'spheroid' here has a slight concentric set of rings partly surrounding it. No craters in these of any degree , and no hint of alterations to the adjacent soil/ices. The dark patches do have a causal relationship, however, clearly.
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Can a non-CO2 cause give an alternative solution to the varied unusual growths called 'spiders' and 'fans'?

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PostPosted: June 6, 2009 7:43 PM 

This image frame matches the first in the prior entry, #17, as a blue-green sensor image layer from the HiRISE MRO camera system. The color JP2's include this image with the Red and Infra Red images to produce the final file we download.
The two grey or gun metal blue objects from the color image are here appearing nearly non-existent. They do cast an apparent shadow to some degree, and there are two alternating bright and dark generally spheroidal objects near where the two should exist.
I'll allow others to give a detailed explanation as to how light assembles to fill the obstructed view with additional details, and you can wonder how we survived as hunters and science types, with the world seen by humans in this 'light',
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PostPosted: June 6, 2009 8:10 PM 

If you ever speak to others about the problems of 'dark matter' mass, gravity, and other curious subjects, you might think to add to the sum this entry information seen at #18 above, as this is similar to current attempts to make 'invisibility' and 'cloaking' devices which cause light to pass around objects and pass around the obstructing 'window slat' or through the 'dual slit' passage, giving a differing reality than is seen at other more 'busy' viewpoints.
I certainly hope we can have an additional satellite for continued mapping, and experimentation with the subjects of Mars terrain, and we might want to tack on additional instrumentation for checking various unusual satellite imaging problems, in order to advance physics/photometry for future missions.

The current HiRISE camera works well, but one more is a step toward completion of a goal of mapping the terrain.

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