KOA Kampgrounds for alients

I was having an argument with my wife this morning and thought I'd post it for others to chime in.

Has to do with the Fermi Paradox, which basically goes, if there are ANY civilizations in the galaxy, over the long term, how come they're not already here?

Her argument, they could be here, and we just don't know it. Good UFO material. This may be a vacation ground for them. We're the low budget backwater campground for those who want to go to their version of a medieval renaissance fair. KOA in the sky.

My counter, any civilization has to follow whatever physical laws there are (their version), and it's likely that conservation of energy applies, thus there is an implicit cost in going from there to here. SO, there has to be an economic value in coming here, and at our stage of development, there ain't none. (let's go pitch a tent on that ant hill for fun)

She says, anything is possible.

Anyone care to expand on this?

glennfish>>>

One of my most famous topics of discussion, however I don't know what your topic title means.

Nevertheless, lets see if we can make this entertaining enough since the Rovers are roving typically over the Martian landscape ad nauseam.

I agree with you on the application and understanding of physical laws...we have to start someplace and understanding Mother Nature to the extent that we do at present day then that is the starting point. And its really only been 160 or so years since flora and fauna on this Earth have been categorized, documented and explored as the world science developed. A Frenchman I believe]

As far as applying what we know of the physical laws of the universe to any alien culture, at least from the amount of Earth science understood so far, I would not hesitate to say that we are NOT alone. Well, sure there are tremendous extremes of life forms on the earth and that alone sets up some interesting possibilities of thoughts and arguments.
1. Perhaps other intellectual societies could not live in an O2 environment, so if they were already on Earth we would know it and much about them, so that's not the present day case.
2. If there were aliens amongst us their world would have to had developed like ours. You know that this much science has to be true to be applied and understood, and it is this. Some, if not all intellectual societal cultures on another planet have to have their world revolve around their sun close to the same conditions as what ours Earth does: 365 days[say between 350>375 days in the Goldie Locks zone] for that revolution with 4 season axial rotation and a perhaps a tilted axis to boot, water and photosynthesis taking place as we know it,[physical laws apply...etc] therefore they would be similar but not the same. Their world would be similar to ours, if not they can not be here, for they would die. Just like we would die on their world without the proper protections. And we would stand out in their society as aliens.

Your good wife has some good points of interest, however, saying 'anything is possible' causes doubt to the science mind. Simply because of physical laws...and all laws stop at their limitations of expression as in form and function. Unless your good wife knows of physical laws the rest of us do not, her statement is immaterial for its a well intended statement but no science depth behind it.

I for one would put her statement another way, one that would conclude a possibility of life in the universe. And as I mentioned above about planet rotation etc, a planet similar to ours must surely exist in order for 'them' to understand the same physical laws we do. This condition of understanding I have no doubts about, that is why there must be another form of life similar to ours.

In Drakes' equation that was post here some time ago, I had set limitations within the data sheet to what I know of the physical universe and came to the numerical value conclusion of 2 civilizations of understanding within our galaxy. I don't think this is too unreal to accept. The galaxy is a very, very big place and my money goes on the inclusion rather than exclusion. What I mean is that the physical laws we know nothing about, and there are some to be sure, may hold true for those extraterrestrials we know nothing about, all the rest we would, but only if they are really out there in our time...not space.

more to follow>>>

yt
dx

Interesting idea, I too have had many thoughts and discussions on this topic.

We have seen many UFO reports over the years.
I am convinced that the majority of these are hoaxes/man-made phenomena, common astronomical/satellite observations, natural weather like ball lightning,etc.
However, some of them are too bizarre and too well documented to be so easily explained away.

If aliens have ever come here to visit the Earth, I'm sure that they marveled at the environment, weather patterns, and life ecosystems and microbiologies. The most obvious reason for a visit to our humble planet would be to collect samples of Earth life (specifically the DNA structures of various animals, plants, fungi, bacteria, viruses, etc.).

They would be very interested in studying the DNA of our planet if it was different than their home. They would also be fascinated to find if there were any similarities to their biology.

If they ever did make trips to Earth the treasures were probably not water, gold, or platinum but probably samples of life. They could make and learn a myriad of facts and uses from our planet's DNA.

We think about aliens getting in their space ship and cruising over here to check out things but if they were driving at the speeds our civilization travels it would take a looong time.

They would have to have found a method of traveling very fast or they would need to have the ability to travel in time.

I suppose they might download their consciousness into a "computer" and then have the consciousness transferred into a automation or clone upon arriving at a destination but time travel or near lightspeed travel might be more likely.

There might be at least several intelligent races capable of reaching our TIME and space and I'm sure if they come they must have an important reason and likley do not want to stop to chit chat (example: Star Trek prime directive).

I wouldn't be too suprised if we learned someday that tourist-like cruise ships came through from time to time.

The universe is very old and there is/has been/will be a lot of stuff going on out there that we are not aware of.
I read somewhere that if the observable galaxies in our universe were the size of peas..... that a large sports stadium could be filled by the peas.

If they do come to Earth there are many important reasons. With Earth's DNA they can build trees/plants, doctor stem cells, potentially alter their DNA to cope with a myriad of conditions, create ecosystems, create beneficial chemicals, engineer micro-organisms, make food, and so much more.

Hi All,

I spent quite a bit of time reading about UFO's and there are certainly somethings that happened that could not be rationally explained and it all attracted some of the best military and scientific personnel (Majestic 12) to keep an eye on things. There are so many reports from all over the world and it is often said these visitors come here for something we have a lot of that they need. DNA is high up on the list backed up by some weird cattle mutulations in the States were only selective organs were removed in a very skillful way. Of course we are 2 thirds water and have a lot of sand too.

Even travelling several times the speed of light would take an age to get anywhere Bob Lazar who claimed to have worked on downed Alien ships at Area 51 said the propulsion system used electomagnetic fields to bend time and space. They do not come here they pull us over to them like a rubber mat being stretched in a triangle and held down with pins at the three points, release the pin on the point you wish to visit and it snaps back to where you are. Voila you have arrived in a very short space of time.

Several Alien types are supposed to visit all having their own reasons for doind so the most popular being the Greys.

It is also possible that these visitors are future Earthlings who have mastered time travel and are popping back to study the past and make a few interesting documentaries.

Either way we are not alone, civilizations have been around in the past are here now and will be so in the future whether they can cross the vastness of the Milky Way let alone the Universe is another story. It could be there are Galactic Arks that sail through the Universe their Home long gone just living off what they can find along the way.

I suspect they take one look at this place and see it no differently as we do the Jungle and the laws that govern that let's face it if these visitors did try and say hello they would than likely get shot.

Good debate though but hey we havn't found the Pony yet let alone one signal from SETI to say ET is on the phone can everyone say hi.

[link] We had a similar thread. Interesting.

Hi John,

Thanks for the link I took part in that debate as well, last June I was visiting my Mother it was a glorious clear sunny day, in the distance we both noticed a bright pulsating light. It was unusually bright for such a sunny clear day, over a period of 10 minutes or so it gradually came towards us and eventually overhead it really was unusually bright a sort of Blue/White colour.
There were similar reports on You Tube around this time.
I cannot say what this was but it was not an aircraft as it was travelling to slow and pulsating and it was not space debris to slow again, weather ballooon maybe but I don't think we use these much anymore and certainly not on the flight path to Heathrow Airport.

KPM, interesting. Weather balloons? I found one a few years back while hunting indian artifacts. Had directions and all for free mailing of the electronics package. I sent it back. Wonder how many are unfound or just a thing sitting on a garage shelf.

...as I type this Kepler just blew off its shield to begin its work on the 100000 or so stars in a very large patch of sky near the Cygnus and Lyra constellations.[look north at Vega and the pole star, Polaris]

Over the past many years I have considered a thought process of life on other planets regardless of them being there at all, not paper driven, just thought, about the existence of 2 particular imaginary planets I call Alpha1 and Beta1. Alpha1 is 2x larger than the Earth with the exact same Goldi-locks rotation position from its 2x the size sun. However, its rotation around its sun takes 750 days and rotates on its axis once every day in 48 hours! There is NO moon to consider, so the events of this 'rock' being a rock with liquid water and land masses created by volcanism and its own tectonics driving a weather platform complete with past and present tectonics and atmospheric phenomena that we also see and live through daily on Earth must be similar to Alpha1 conditions for life. Now Beta1 is completely the opposite again. Its a half size Earth rotating around a half size star, yet the star generates the required heat and light and other conditions similar to our Sun. Beta1 rotates in its sun's Goldi-locks orbit too but with a 180 orbit and rotates on its axis in a 12 hour day. It too has oceans and polar ice caps and land masses with weather patterns similar to Earth. No moons in either condition to speak of because whatever happened as an Earth and Moon scenario that we have today is more than likely not a case to extend to many similar exo-planet conditions as these two will represent here. In my mind some but not all coincidences can be the same. For instance our instruments have detected over 300 exo-planets, yet there are some that may have moons and some may not. Time will tell. In our solar system, Venus and Mercury do not have moons and for all intents and purposes neither does Mars. Those 2 are captured rocks, similar to those called Trojans ahead in orbit of other planets. Read as Jupiter's Trojans orbital leaders and trailers. Earth has some too. So perhaps Mars captured a few weaker slower or faster moving orbital rocks that tried to be Trojans.

Now both Alpha1 and Beta1 have had their share of planetary upheaval just like the Earth did in Earth's time. Now the fun begins. Consider that photosynthesis and all it brings with it is a given condition for Goldi-locks planets like Alpha1 and Beta1. The laws of nature as we know it must take hold on both.[frankly speaking and lets get over this hump once and for all-there is not another planet in our solar system that has any photosynthesis taking place other than the Earth] I won't go into too many deep details, just enough to generate some overall thoughts using weather conditions and plant growth that may exist under the laws of nature.

Now fellow Mars Blogger's on this forum, mind jump to this>>> What is in the oceans and what is on the land of Alpha1 and Beta1? Now remember we are searching for intelligent life in the universe! And don't forget these intelligent lives went through a similar [not the same] process and conditions of development as we did. You know, ancient civilization stuff. [and we are still digging up the Earth to find our past-early humanoids began from 6 million or so years ago!] A product of the planet is what we are. All things we know are products of the Earth. So whatever happens on these 2 planets, Alpha1 and Beta1 will have similar conditions but not the same. Will one be speeder in its evolutionary progress of abundant life we know about-because of the laws of nature-or will one it be slower to react to its planetary conditions to promote a intellectual civilization we can communicate with?

...more later

yt
dx